Does Wizards want Greyhawk to fail?

[Glyfair]

Market wise, the facts are that FR and Eberron sell better

If you are talking about now, of course they do because there are no Greyhawk products on the market. If you are talking historically, you seem to be operating under incorrect facts. Lisa Stevens has stated on the Paizo forums that when she was in charge of the Greyhawk line, during the 2E period, it sold about as well as the Forgotten Realms line.

 

[Rykion]

Wonderful. So we both think the other's position is absurd. I can tell we're well on our way to a fruitfall conversation here.

My whole argument hinges on the word "reasonable." They've done everything reasonable. The Greyhawk fans think it's unreasonable that WotC hasn't supported Greyhawk in an Eberron or FR like manner, I'm saying I doubt that sales of Greyhawk material match Eberron or FR. Therefore, supporting it in a FR or Eberron like manner isn't reasonable.

But honestly, I think most Greyhawk fans have too high an opinion of the setting and it's market viability. I honestly don't think that's where the gaming market is going, and the fact that WotC was willing to insinuate all this Greyhawkiana into the basic game itself was them going out on a limb, to a certain extent.

The problem is Greyhawk hasn't been given the chance in 3rd Ed to prove itself as a seller or a stinker. The little fluff bits in the rulebooks are nice, but since they're in the corebooks no one can say what importance Greyhawk had in product sales. The Gazetteers were not the quality of the other campaign setting books, and the "Living" title kept some not interested in RPGA events away. I think many fans believe Greyhawk just wasn't given the chance to prove it could sell on its own, and get support on the level of the FR and Eberron. GH was a proven seller in previous editions.

Animus? Do you mean animosity?

No, I believe GVDammerung meant animus. Animus 2 : a usually prejudiced and often spiteful or malevolent ill will. From Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

 

[Glyfair]

I think many fans believe Greyhawk just wasn't given the chance to prove it could sell on its own, and get support on the level of the FR and Eberron. GH was a proven seller in previous editions.

And really, the only comments we've ever seen that even mention sales as a factor was Scott Rouse's comment about how great sales of the Expedition book could lead to more Greyhawk books.

They have been clear since 3E was released that they want to limit actively supported settings. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms fill pretty much the same niche. Rather than split the fans of the niche (compared to fans of either setting) they picked one, and that one was Forgotten Realms. That was decided way back in 1999.

 

[Desdichado]

The problem is Greyhawk hasn't been given the chance in 3rd Ed to prove itself as a seller or a stinker.

How is that a problem? We know that leading up the release of 3e, WotC did tons and tons of market research. I think it's fair to assume that when WotC decided to focus on a single campaign setting and nominally support another by making it "default" they knew what they were doing. Ryan Dancey specifically mentioned campaign setting bloat as part of their market research. I don't know what specifically they asked (much less what they found out) but I think it reasonable to assume that when they made the decision that Forgotten Realms was going to be the only campaign setting they published at the time, they made that decision based on that market data they had spent all that time collecting, especially when campaign setting bloat was one of the specific findings they called out.

On the other hand, you appear to be assuming that it wasn't and that Greyhawk should have been proven on the crucible of actual market viability and sales numbers rather than all that other data that they presumably gathered.

 

[the black knight]

Dude, do your research. The RPGA and Wotc had bigger plans for Greyhawk BEFORE Hasbro took over. After the takeover, Greyhawk was relegated to the dustbin, mostly by people within the company who don't really like the setting... *Cough cough collins cough*

Living Greyhawk limped along after that.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

I think it's fair to assume that when WotC decided to focus on a single campaign setting and nominally support another by making it "default" they knew what they were doing.

But events have shown that WotC didn't just support one setting or does Eberron not count as a setting. I know it was FR 1st and it was the only setting supported for a time. Then they had a setting search contest and I had no problem with that. I'm happy some people really enjoy Eberron. But my point is that WotC didn't stick with just one campaign setting, they focused two- FR and Eberron.

 

[the black knight]

A couple of notes.

1st - Wizards placed the restrictions on Paizo that determined how Paizo could use Greyhawk. For example, Paizo could not say "City of Greyhawk" but had to say "Free City."

2nd - I attended 5 Wotc seminars at Gencon 2007 where GH was raised to the Wotc panel. The two D&D Q&A seminars had both Andy Collins and Bill Slavisek on the panel and the RPGA meeting seminar saw Collins in attendence. Collins is one of the leads on 4E and Bill Slavisek directs the RPG end of Wotc. When Greyhawk was mentioned both Slavisek and Collins got looks on their faces like they had smelled something bad. When the GH questions would not just go away they got figety and continued to look sour and provide the most curt answers possible. THis is all body language and intonation and my impression thereof but my impression is that GH is not something Wotc wants to hear about let alone talk about. "Can't all you gamers just play the Realms!" seemed to be the unspoken impression, at least to this attendee.

In sum, I think there is antipathy toward GH. Perhaps, animus. Certainly animus to the extent that GH does not factor into 4e and is thus a distraction from the selling of 4e.

IMO. YMMV.

Edit - Oh. And Erik Mona has noted that in response to recent inquiry Wotc has no interest in licensing GH.

Yeah, neither Collins nor Slavesik have any respect for the setting whatsoever. I'll cheer the day they both get canned from Wotc. Oh let it be soon.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I'm a fan of Gygax's 1983 boxed set Greyhawk, it's the most 'D&Dy' of the D&D worlds, closest to the implied setting of the core rules. But the problem is that, like all creative works, it is very much of its time. The Rain of Colorless Fire/Invoked Devastation is a clear analogue for WW3 - a nuclear apocalypse. What relevance does that have to us now in a world where global warming is the #1 concern and terrorism #2?

 

[Sunderstone]

I still think the notion that WotC wants to kill Greyhawk is borderline lunacy, though. From my perspective, they've done everything reasonably possible to get Greyhawk material to its fans.

I agree on the WotC not going out of its way kill Greyhawk. BUT, WotC did next to nothing to support GH fans.
IMO, its the younger crowd for the most part that are the big fans of FR and Eberron. The fans of "high" magic where every innkeeper seems to be level 4+ caster, super drow, and mage gods. WotC was just listening to the more numerous.

Dont get me wrong, I was a big fan of FR ( I still own every 3/3.5 sourcebook) since the grey box. Its just too magical for me. I prefer the lower magic and grittier feel of Greyhawk.

WotC is all for the younger generation, I wasnt expecting miracles from the company that brings us CCG's like Magic. And every year, they seem to be catering more and more to the "hip" stuff and drifting from what made D&D so great.

Its sad that with even enough fanbase, WotC wont even license GH out (I guess it's good business sense). This is the straw pretty much for me and my group. The new WotC is becoming too much of what I dont like in gaming.

Even if they do release a Greyhawk book, unless its done by writers from Paizo or folks that love the setting, it will most likely be ruined anyway. Nothing against people like Collins, Wyatt, and Boyd but if they did Greyhawk, I wouldnt want it.

Sorry in advance for being negative, Ive been thinking alot about my gaming future as of late. What some people see as a fresh start looks like final nails in the coffin for some of us.

 

[Doug McCrae]

IMO, its the younger crowd for the most part that are the big fans of FR and Eberron. The fans of "high" magic where every innkeeper seems to be level 4+ caster, super drow, and mage gods.

Eberron's high magic is very different from the Forgotten Realms. NPC levels are low, 10 is effectively maximum for active characters, very much in contrast with FR's 30 (and lower than Greyhawk's 20). Magic in Eberron is broad but shallow. It's all over the place but not very powerful.

In FR, gods walk the Earth. In Greyhawk quasi-gods such as Heward and Murlynd* walk the Earth. In Eberron there are no gods.

*Who dresses like a cowboy and carries a pair of Colt 45s - classic fantasy