D&D 5E Does WotC suck at selling games?

pemerton

Legend
We don't know that better methods are available - it's too early to tell how well the 5e Starter Set has done, and we don't know how the Moldvay Basic set (or a 5e equivalent thereof) would have done in today's marketplace.
You seem to be talking about sales. The blog was talking about growing new DMs. For all I know the Starter Set has sold better than any other D&D product ever - but that on its own doesn't tell us anything about how many new DMs it might have created. And based on my (second-hand) knowledge of its contents, I doubt that it will create, per unit sold, as many new and capable DMs as Moldvay Basic did. Simply because, as best I understand, it doesn't actually talk about how to undertake the tasks associated with GMing. Whereas Moldvay did.

it's not fair to dismiss the Starter Set as one of three identical on-ramps, then say they should focus on DM conversion instead, when the whole purpose of the Starter Set is DM conversion.
I don't see why not. The criticism isn't that they failed to assert that they had a product aimed at DM conversion. The criticism, rather, is that that product is a failure in that respect, because it doesn't actually contain guidelines and advice on how to run a game.

If the blogger is, in fact, wrong about that, then his criticism doesn't go through. But from what I've read, no one has argued that he is wrong and that the Starter Set does in fact contain sophisticated GMing advice.

In one of his more recent Legends & Lore columns, Mearls talked about the thinking that went into the 5e Starter Set, and in particular why they didn't stick with the tried-and-tested "tutorial books plus mini-adventure" model.
I read it. I don't remember the reasons, but they were probably sensible - Mearls isn't an idiot. But there are many ways to provide GMing advice other than via tutorial books. And it need not be lengthy, either: Moldvay Basic packs more useful adventuring advice into a chapter of 10 or so pages (I'm going from memory here) than Gygax fits into his whole DMG!

How do you avoid such a book simply becoming a rules compendium with 101 examples of play codified into something we subsequently all argue over?

Having said that, more examples always help in some way, I suppose.

My issue with "WotC needs to teach DM's how to DM" is that the primary piece of advice to live by as a DM, as I see it, is "Do whatever is
I don't know what examples you have in mind, so I'm not sure if you know the examples I know but don't regard them as helpful for teaching GMing, or rather if you're just not familiar with those examples.

I'm going to proceed on the 2nd assumption, and apologise in advance if it turns out to be condescending (and also look forward to hearing why you disagree with me about their value!).

First, chapter 8 Moldvay Basic. This sets out a step-by-step guide for creating a dungeon. It has advice, including random tables (with 10 entries each) on how to choose a setting (eg haunted crypt, tower, literal dungeon, etc) and also a scenario that will drive play (eg treasure hunting, rescue prisoners, etc). It then has advice on how to draw the map and stock the rooms - including when/how to stock rooms in accordance with the setting and scenario, and when/how to use random tables for monsters, traps and treasure. (And it supplies the random tables). It then has a worked example of dungeon design (level 1 of The Haunted Keep). It then has a discussion of "Dungeon Mastering as a Fine Art", which includes advice on action resolution for actions the rest of the rules don't cover (by way of stat checks or percentage chance of success, including advice on how to set the percentages, namely, by reference to "objective" likelihood within the fiction), handling questions of rules interpretation, etc.

Moldvay also uses font and paragraph layout to good effect, to make it (visually) easier to pull his advice off the page.

If I compare it to the 4e DMG, the latter spends many more pages (and walls of text) on some of these matters, but when it comes to encounter design gives advice only on the tactical aspects of combat encounters, but no advice on how to use the game's resources to build up the story elements of encounters (it encourages GMs to do this, but doesn't tell them how), and barely any advice at all on how to resolve skill challenges (it talks about skill selection, but there is basically nothing about how to narrate consequences other than encouragement to narrate consequences). Even page 42 is only a shadow of what it might be: for instance, the example involves dealing damage plus forced movement, but none of the charts for DC by level, damage by level etc discusses how to incorporate effects and conditions such as forced movement into the process of adjudicating improvised actions.

The second example I have in mind is not a D&D one, but it is still a fantasy RPG: Burning Wheel, both the core rulebook and the Adventure Burner (which is BW's equivalent to a DMG). These have concrete advice, such as how to frame scenes (do so having regard to the Beliefs the players have written for their PCs, putting those Beliefs under pressure), how to use Relationships ("If one of your relationships is your wife in the village [and] you're hunting a vampyr, of course it's your wife who is his victim!"), how to narrate consequences (including techniques of "fail forward", as well as distinguishing intent from task in action resolution, and emphasising the place of each in narrating both success and failure).

Luke Crane tends more towards the non-Moldvay D&D style "wall of text" without crisp use of font and layout. But the vigour and passion of his writing, and his willingness to cut through obfuscation and explain unambiguously why he thinks a certain GMing choice will make the game play out well, in my view makes up for any visual inadequacies. (Of course there's no reason you couldn't combine his robustness of communication with Moldvay's visual clarity of layout.)

These aren't rules compendiums with codified examples. They are instructional manuals. They explain, in a systematic and (hopefully) clear way how to go about a certain complex task. (Other examples, though not quite as good in my opinion, include Robin Laws advice in his HeroWars/Quest books, and Maelstrom Storytelling. Some very good advice, but for a more freeform and non-fantasy system, is given by Tweet and Laws in Over the Edge.)

I gave a couple of examples, upthread, that I think are important for 5e: what considerations might a GM take account of in setting DCs? Or in deciding which stat to test for some particular task or challenge?

Making good decisions about these things is pretty fundamental to 5e GMing. It should be possible to write a brief (1 or 2 page) and pithy discussion of how to do those things. You don't need very many worked examples. But if you do use examples, you also need to tell the would-be GMs reading along at home what techniques those examples illustrate. If I am watching a video or reading a book telling me how to kick a football, I expect the narrator not just to show, but also to tell. (Liat Gat's knitting video's are excellent models for this.) There's no reason an RPG book can't do the same with its examples. (The 4e skill challenge examples are epic fails in this regard. In both of them the GM is using techniques, in particular drawing upon various metagame considerations to guide the narration of consequences, which are nowhere discussed in the 4e rulebooks and which are not called out by way of explanation in the examples. The reader is expected to extract them by osmosis. This is about as likely as me learning how to make a paper crane by watching a commentary-free youtube video of the world origami championships.)
 
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First, pet rant, as picked up by [MENTION=128]Mishihari Lord[/MENTION], WotC most assuredly does not suck at selling games - just look at Magic: the Gathering for details. D&D is a small sideshow as far as WotC is concerned. And I've long suspected it's where they send people (like Tom LaPille) who've screwed up because ultimately it doesn't matter to WotC much.

You cannot compare D&D to a visual medium or board game.

OK. How about comparing it to Pathfinder? Or the oWoD? Paizo's marketing kicks the arse of WotC.

Also on point, Paizo Adventure paths at least give the illusion of being easy to run. (I don't believe they are - but they give that illusion) and with a lot of variety (again I think the variety is a lot less than it appears). Paizo therefore use APs to gain new DMs. For that matter 4e makes DMing easy in ways 5e doesn't.

To help bring in new players ... you need to sell the social aspect of D&D.

Yup.

The research CCP (Eve Online) did, according to Ryan Dancey, showed that the tabletop gaming player base was transitioning to a MMORPG player base. The MMO market contains a high percentage of lapsed tabletop gamers who have no intention of going back. MMOs fulfil their needs better. They just didn't know it 30 years ago.

Or at least fill their needs well enough with fewer overheads. And it's hard not to be impressed by the big online battles.

One thing I definitely agree with the article is the concept of a real DM teaching manual.
...
Video Games tutorials learned this lesson. You don't spend 5-10 minutes going through all the rules at the beginning of the game. The players start moving, you teach them a few things and off they go...then you add a little more, than a little more. I think a starter kit can do the same thing.

The first should be the DMG. And a lot of Vincent Baker's games do it very well. The second? Again I'm looking to Vincent Baker more than D&D. D&D is just that bit too heavy.
 

delericho

Legend
You seem to be talking about sales.

I wasn't, but that's a failure of communication on my part. The stated goal of the Starter Set is to get a new DM running his first adventure - presumably with the hope that he'll then run more. So the question of how well it does should be judged on that metric. Either way, it's too soon to tell.

And based on my (second-hand) knowledge of its contents, I doubt that it will create, per unit sold, as many new and capable DMs as Moldvay Basic did.

Moldvay Basic was released just as the D&D fad was at its peak. It's probably the single best-selling version of the game in history, and was probably seen and used by many more people still. So it's no surprise that it generated many new DMs.

But if they replicated Moldvay now, there's no guarantee it would do as well. So we're stuck comparing how well the 5e Starter Set has done (which we don't know), with how well a 5e Moldvay-equivalent would do (which we don't know).

I don't see why not. The criticism isn't that they failed to assert that they had a product aimed at DM conversion. The criticism, rather, is that that product is a failure in that respect, because it doesn't actually contain guidelines and advice on how to run a game.

If the blogger is, in fact, wrong about that, then his criticism doesn't go through. But from what I've read, no one has argued that he is wrong and that the Starter Set does in fact contain sophisticated GMing advice.

I don't know about 'sophisticated', but the Starter Set absolutely does contain advice on how to run a game - albeit the very specific game that comes from running the adventure included. It's basically "My First Adventure", with the hope that DMs who run it will be bitten by the bug and then proceed to the Basic set or the 'full' game.

And it is, surprisingly, an excellent adventure, both in its own right and as a teaching aide for the game as a whole. The first part is deliberately structured as a fairly simple, classic dungeon-crawl, intentionally combat heavy but also including distinct role-play and exploration options. This eases new groups into the new ruleset by focussing on the most mechanical (and most teachable) elements of the game. Thereafter, in parts two and three especially, it opens up into a much more sandbox-y style of play, giving the players lots of scope for interaction, exploration, and combat. It's very, very well done.

(The Starter Set is actually a bit of an odd beast in that regard: in my view there is absolutely no value in the box unless you're going to run that adventure, since everything else is available online; but the adventure itself is one of, if not the, best that WotC have ever published - and both for newbies and more experienced DMs.)
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I wasn't, but that's a failure of communication on my part. The stated goal of the Starter Set is to get a new DM running his first adventure - presumably with the hope that he'll then run more.

I don't know about 'sophisticated', but the Starter Set absolutely does contain advice on how to run a game - albeit the very specific game that comes from running the adventure included. It's basically "My First Adventure", with the hope that DMs who run it will be bitten by the bug and then proceed to the Basic set or the 'full' game.

Yeah. I wonder if some folks are looking at the same Starter Set that I am. The adventure hand-holds a new DM through the process. It says stuff in the text like [paraphrased from memory] "Now roll for initiative for the 4 goblins. Their initiative bonus is +6." etc., telling you exactly how to run it. I think it's a wonderful product which works perfectly.
 

Astrosicebear

First Post
OK. How about comparing it to Pathfinder? Or the oWoD? Paizo's marketing kicks the arse of WotC.

Pathfinder was a hand-off and essentially went into the business with the perfect storm, pre-generated fan base, good company history, and really bad image problem at major competitor. They could have put a turd on the cover and sold books. But they did it right, at least as right as WOTC because they copied everything.

WOTC puts out board games, paizo puts out board games.
WOTC puts out books, paizo puts out books.
WOTC puts out minis, paizo puts out minis.
WOTC puts out comics, paizo puts out comics.

No ones playbook is different here.

Lets not digress from the main point. No one is selling RPG books in a unique way that shifts paradigm... at least not yet.


Why hasnt WOTC looked at the XBOX LIVE/PSN style yet? Subscription services didnt work in 4e because 4e didnt give valid content.

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Thank Dog

Banned
Banned
For that matter 4e makes DMing easy in ways 5e doesn't.
Really? How so? I've found it to be far easier to DM than 4e. I've also seen some new DM's run games and DM's that don't even know 5e very well and they've done just fine. The opposite was true IME with 4e.

Yeah. I wonder if some folks are looking at the same Starter Set that I am. The adventure hand-holds a new DM through the process. It says stuff in the text like [paraphrased from memory] "Now roll for initiative for the 4 goblins. Their initiative bonus is +6." etc., telling you exactly how to run it. I think it's a wonderful product which works perfectly.
I had avoided reading LMoP because I'm playing through it but the other night I almost had to run it for an extra group at the FLGS so I had to speed read through the first section. I was easily able to grasp everything and the intention behind everything as well as all the little plot hooks and elements because of the hand-holding layout. I only needed about 10-15 minutes to be ready to run at least a few hours worth of play. Didn't end up running it but the fact remains that I think I would've struggled to be ready with any other module or format.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Greg Bilsland comments: "Keep in mind also that the basic rules is not done yet. We will be giving more attention teaching new players once core is done."

I really think this is overblown, and that it's just an artifact of impatience. It'll happen. Just not right this second while they're still writing the rules.
 

Pathfinder was a hand-off and essentially went into the business with the perfect storm, pre-generated fan base, good company history, and really bad image problem at major competitor. They could have put a turd on the cover and sold books. But they did it right, at least as right as WOTC because they copied everything.

WOTC puts out board games, paizo puts out board games.
WOTC puts out books, paizo puts out books.
WOTC puts out minis, paizo puts out minis.
WOTC puts out comics, paizo puts out comics.

No ones playbook is different here.

By the same token, any two professional sports teams in the same league are running on the same playbook. And all that matters is they are trying to get the ball into the net at the other end. WotC managed a critically well regarded comic (Fell's Five) pretty much for the first time in the history of D&D that they pulled with no warning.

Why hasnt WOTC looked at the XBOX LIVE/PSN style yet? Subscription services didnt work in 4e because 4e didnt give valid content.

Subscription services gathered a $6million/year income in 4e despite being a shadow of what was promised (Virtual Tabletop, anyone?). I'd hardly call that a failure.

Really? How so? I've found it to be far easier to DM than 4e. I've also seen some new DM's run games and DM's that don't even know 5e very well and they've done just fine. The opposite was true IME with 4e.

The Beginner Box for 5e does a very good job. LMoP is by all accounts excellent. HotDQ is ... better than Keep on the Shadowfell (which is a very low bar to cross) and the early 4e adventures sucked.

On the other hand 4e worked out of the box. 4e did not make monsters where the DM had to refer to the PHB to find out what they actually did. It did not make a mockery of its balancing system with such things as a CR2 Intellect Devourer. The 5e landmines aren't at first level (although the number of kobolds in HotDQ is absurd).

I only needed about 10-15 minutes to be ready to run at least a few hours worth of play. Didn't end up running it but the fact remains that I think I would've struggled to be ready with any other module or format.

Been there, done that with 4e.

For that matter with Apocalypse World I've run a four hour session cold from absolutely zero preparation - with it being my first time playing or running the game.

Greg Bilsland comments: "Keep in mind also that the basic rules is not done yet. We will be giving more attention teaching new players once core is done."

... Seriously? The argument is that the game was launched incomplete? (One of my greatest complaints about 4e - it needed about another year of playtesting).

I can only make judgements on the game WotC have produced. Not what is at present vapourware.
 

Astrosicebear

First Post
By the same token, any two professional sports teams in the same league are running on the same playbook. And all that matters is they are trying to get the ball into the net at the other end. WotC managed a critically well regarded comic (Fell's Five) pretty much for the first time in the history of D&D that they pulled with no warning.

So it comes down to who has the better players/team? I'm OK with that.



Subscription services gathered a $6million/year income in 4e despite being a shadow of what was promised (Virtual Tabletop, anyone?). I'd hardly call that a failure.
Holy Schneikies... But devils advocate, how much of that was profit from services? After overhead, server costs, author costs, payouts to failed products, etc...
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
... Seriously? The argument is that the game was launched incomplete? (One of my greatest complaints about 4e - it needed about another year of playtesting).

I can only make judgements on the game WotC have produced. Not what is at present vapourware.

Judge away. It's the Internet. It's what it's for!
 

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