Does your campaign have magic shops?

[VirgilCaine]

(who would that be, BTW, the Pope, the College of Cardinals, or the sovereign nation of Italy?)

I think you mean the sovereign nation of Vatican City (or the Holy See?). Well, not Italy, at any rate.

 

[Orius]

But why is it "priceless". Priceless means that something is too rare or valuable to ever sell. But that is patently not the case with most DMG magic items. They may be very expensive, but the fact is that most adventurers in a standard campaign will, over the course of their career, accumulate a significant amount of loot that they have no use for, that they would simply like to convert into cash, and hence would be more than willing to sell those istems. Are we to assume that the PC adventuring party is entirely unique in this regard?

I also disagree that +5 weapons or rings or protection or the like would be considered priceless under the core D&D system. They are extremely powerful items, but the truly priceless items would be major artifacts.

I think much of the argument has to do with a paradigm shift in the D&D rules themselves. Earlier editions argued constantly for making magic rare, as a way of preserving balance. That is, when modules didn't "balance" things by nerfing or negating player abilities arbitrarily. However, even though magic was supposed to be rare, modules were often loaded with magic items ripe for the looting. At least 3e assumes a high magic game, and in such a setting some form of magic-based commerce would likely exist.

 

[The_Gneech]

I think much of the argument has to do with a paradigm shift in the D&D rules themselves. Earlier editions argued constantly for making magic rare, as a way of preserving balance. That is, when modules didn't "balance" things by nerfing or negating player abilities arbitrarily. However, even though magic was supposed to be rare, modules were often loaded with magic items ripe for the looting. At least 3e assumes a high magic game, and in such a setting some form of magic-based commerce would likely exist.

This is a good point; one of my early disconnects with 1e was reading in one paragraph that magic items were those most rare and wondrous of things, and then in another that some kobold or other had a +1 dagger in a chest (as opposed to, say, in his inventory).

But heck, even the real world has magic shops! I don't just mean stage magic, although that's there too ... I've been to small, seedy, hole-in-the-wall stores that claimed to have genuine magic items. If such things exist in the modern-day U.S.A., then surely they must exist in a world where there are genuine magic items, mustn't they?

-The Gneech

 

[LazarusLong42]

I do have a "magical Wal-Mart" IMC--it's called Zemala's, and it has franchises in the major cities. But it also has an appropriate backstory, machinations going on that the PCs don't and never will know about, and of course never has everything in stock. I actually roll d100 vs. the item's price in gold ingots (i.e. 100 gp) to check if something's in stock... which means anything above 10 kgp is going to be very scarce indeed. Of course, Zemala's has a large network, and for a price they can get you just about anything...

Zemala's also acts as a go-between, skimming a little bit of money from commissioned magic items that it outsources to a number of wizards.

Certain things which ought to be readily available in a high magic campaign are literally in racks--CLW and CMW potions for instance--but most everything else is kept behind the counters.

And, of course, the party's already in possession of an artifact, and they still don't quite know what it does... but I suppose in a high-magic game, it's the artifacts that are "special." A +3 sword can be simply bought and sold though.

 

[LoneWolf23]

I think it's possible to handle Magic Shops by seperating them into different categories: Apothecaries for Magical Components and Magic Potions, Magical Scribes for Scrolls, and different Magical Craftsmen for different Magic Items.

If we apply Medieval Thinking to Magical Item Creation, then it's logical to assume that different Crafters will have different specialties, just as in the real world, different craftsmen specialised in different crafts: armor specialists did one thing, weaponsmiths did another, and so on. And even Weaponsmiths tended to specialise, with swordsmiths being considered the finest specialists.

Following this thinking, I'd conclude that Magic Item makers would similar specialise, in part due to their experience, in part due to their upbringing or their character traits. A Dwarf weaponsmith will undoubtedly be very good at crafting weapons and armors of metal, and may specialise more in Heavy Plate and Axes, and special abilities like Invulnerable (DR 5/Magic) or Fortified armors, and Bane or Mighty Cleaving weapons.

Meanwhile, an Elven Weaponsmith who's also good at crafting weapons and armors will favor light armors and either longswords and rapiers, and will focus on more subtle special abilities like Silent Moves or Glamered armors, and could have any kind of special ability on his weapons, depending on how "flashy" he is..

Remember that Magic Item creation isn't just expensive in terms of Gold, but also in terms of Experience Points. I doubt that a Wizardly Craftsman will waste experience points to make a random magic sword and just put it in his shop, waiting for a customer for it. In the real world, Weaponsmiths generally made their weapons to order, custom fitted to the client's specifications. The same, in my opinion, should be true of Magic Weapons and Armors. If a Longsword happens to be a +3 Keen Orcbane Longsword, it should be because it was forged to specifications for a skilled warrior engaged in a personal vandetta against Orcs.

The GURPS Line has a good take on the idea of Magic Item shops with their Magic Items series: Armors and Shields are one specialist's commerce, Magical Clothing are another's, and Magical Items for Rogues are yet another's.

So, I could definetly see Magic Shops existing, each one with different specialties..

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think the paradigm shift is important. D&D has stopped being a way for friends to emulate Lord of the Rings, Elric, whatever, and started embracing it's position as a game. I find this an incredibly positive change, because I as a DM am more than capable of injecting story and plot and world into the campaign however I want, and it's the fun of the game that keeps people coming up to it, not just the story, not just the world. It's the high score, the victory, the variation, the replay value, the points, when used in combination with a powerful plot, moving characterization, and living, breathing world. It's become it's own beast, allowing individual DM's to alter it for their own tastes, but providing something cogent and fine on it's own level. It means it gets the details right, leaving me to have fun with the tinkering (which is something I really believe every DM loves to do on a certain level). And it's a credit to the sturdiness of the game that people can do things like run low-magic or high-magic or gritty or sci-fantasy campaigns effectively using the same exact ruleset, by picking, choosing, and altering the descriptions and methods of "points" in the game.

Magic in D&D by default is not meant to be especially wonderous or rare. It's a common tool. Just like elves in D&D by default are not meant to be alien and untouchable. They're just another common people.

Now, if you're playing a different game, or a different style of D&D, that's cool. It's not significantly more difficult to simply make magic rare than it is to make elves noble. But I don't think that's a "better" way to play the game at all. In fact, in some ways I can see how people could see it as a worse way to play the game. The only truly good way to play is the way you and your friends have fun doing it, and whether it's killing gods or struggling to survive against kobolds, it's all good.

 

[Henry]

Interesting note brought on from the above comments... Though I've allowed purchase and sale of many magic items in my games, I've NEVER allowed purchase and sale of major relics and artifacts. They've always been major portable plot hooks. I would object to someone selling these for mere gold. Does that make me value the "mystique" of magic... or does it just make me a hypocrite?

I guess it's in how one sees them. Having Glamdring in your game is a bit different from having "an enchanted sword."

 

[random user]

Interesting note brought on from the above comments... Though I've allowed purchase and sale of many magic items in my games, I've NEVER allowed purchase and sale of major relics and artifacts. They've always been major portable plot hooks. I would object to someone selling these for mere gold. Does that make me value the "mystique" of magic... or does it just make me a hypocrite?

I would allow the sale, though that would be frought with danger, as the buyer might decide to attack the party right after he acquires the artifact, to get his gold back. It's potentially going to attract some attention to themselves, both before the sale (from people who want to acquire the artifact) as well as after (from people who think these fat cats are ripe for shaking down... and by people I'm talking about random high level intelligent monsters as well).

I would never allow the purchase of an artifact -- the players probably don't have the gold, and even if they did, no one would be interested in selling it.

I think the difference is that for a normal magic item, there is always the underlying assumption that even if you don't get this exact item, another one will come along eventually. So even if the player's later regret their purchase/sale, they can rectify that situation. That's not the case for an artifact.

 

[shilsen]

I think the paradigm shift is important. D&D has stopped being a way for friends to emulate Lord of the Rings, Elric, whatever, and started embracing it's position as a game. I find this an incredibly positive change, because I as a DM am more than capable of injecting story and plot and world into the campaign however I want, and it's the fun of the game that keeps people coming up to it, not just the story, not just the world. It's the high score, the victory, the variation, the replay value, the points, when used in combination with a powerful plot, moving characterization, and living, breathing world. It's become it's own beast, allowing individual DM's to alter it for their own tastes, but providing something cogent and fine on it's own level. It means it gets the details right, leaving me to have fun with the tinkering (which is something I really believe every DM loves to do on a certain level). And it's a credit to the sturdiness of the game that people can do things like run low-magic or high-magic or gritty or sci-fantasy campaigns effectively using the same exact ruleset, by picking, choosing, and altering the descriptions and methods of "points" in the game.

Magic in D&D by default is not meant to be especially wonderous or rare. It's a common tool. Just like elves in D&D by default are not meant to be alien and untouchable. They're just another common people.

Now, if you're playing a different game, or a different style of D&D, that's cool. It's not significantly more difficult to simply make magic rare than it is to make elves noble. But I don't think that's a "better" way to play the game at all. In fact, in some ways I can see how people could see it as a worse way to play the game. The only truly good way to play is the way you and your friends have fun doing it, and whether it's killing gods or struggling to survive against kobolds, it's all good.

I could write a smart, witty and cogent post, but I think I'll settle for "Yup, yup, yup - listen to the smart talking banana, people"

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

So by your book, every wizard in the world sits there churning out magic items?

Nope. You'll notice that I did not say that in any way, shape, or form.

I do see your point very well, that you will have casters who do make items for sale in order to get rich, but I don't think they should be commonplace enough to have magic shops.

All it takes is one to get the ball rolling.

Besides, it's unlikely that you'll have a caster actively making all the items in his shop. After all, he can't get XP while he's making items, and he can't make items without XP. Plus, it's not like he can get the best price on his stuff. It's far more likely that he deals with a guy who has some magical ability but is much better at the business end, who winds up distributing the items that his stable of contacts creates.

In other words, you have the fixer/dealer sort of magic "shop". He may even have a storefront with minor stuff on display, but it's entirely possible he sits in a particular inn from, say, noon to 4 PM each day, so people can find him and place orders or list items for sale.

Again, by core book standard. But do you honestly think that everyone of them has +3 weapons, armours, rings of protections, bracers, bags of holding...etc? Assuming that they all do is daft.

Assuming they don't average out to what they should have to be able to have accumulated the XP in the first place is, I'd say, approximately as daft.

The problem as I see it, is that with the advent of third edition D&D, magic has become everything. Its taken the idea that magic replaces a lot in the setting. As I said before, magic as technology. That spoils the feel of the game. What I am suggesting is to make magic and magical items special again, instead of being commonplace.

That's your preference. It would appear that many people do not share that preference.

Brad