Domination and optional add-on effects -- who decides?

[Prestidigitalis]

When a PC has at-will attacks that have optional add-on effects, which effects can be applied when the PC is dominated?

For example, let's take an Epic Tier Knight who uses the Defend the Line stance with a hammer, and has the feats Hammer Shock, World Serpent's Grasp, and Overwhelming Impact. Assume the Knight is already Slowed from an earlier attack.

A Mind Flayer Mastermind uses its Enslave power to dominate the Knight. The Mastermind forces the Knight to make an MBA against a Druid ally. The MBA hits. Aside from the damage, the following effects can be applied:

1. Hammer Shock can Rattle the Druid
2. World Serpent's Grasp can knock the Druid prone (because the Druid is already Slowed)
3. Defend the Line can Slow the Druid, or Overwhelming Impact can convert the Slowed to Dazed.

Which conditions are imposed? For #3, who decides which?

 

[bobhayes]

Whichever conditions or abilities the Dominating creature chooses and knows about. For #3, the dominating creature decides, if it knows of the choice.

Domination does not provide any special knowledge of the PC's abilities. If the mind flayer has never seen the PC before and doesn't have any idea of the PCs abilities, his instructions will be simple: "hit that guy", with no special bonuses.

If he's used his telepathic powers to ascertain the PC's full range of powers, he can deploy whichever of them he wants to.

 

[Lezta]

Whichever conditions or abilities the Dominating creature chooses and knows about. For #3, the dominating creature decides, if it knows of the choice.

Domination does not provide any special knowledge of the PC's abilities. If the mind flayer has never seen the PC before and doesn't have any idea of the PCs abilities, his instructions will be simple: "hit that guy", with no special bonuses.

If he's used his telepathic powers to ascertain the PC's full range of powers, he can deploy whichever of them he wants to.

I think you're a looking at it the wrong way. If the character is dominated, that character isn't a puppet acting under the direct control of the monster. It's a suggestion; a brainwash. (in most cases,certainly the case when dealing with illithids)

I'd say the character would treat the former-ally as an enemy and go all out, in the majority of cases.

 

[fba827]

When a PC has at-will attacks that have optional add-on effects, which effects can be applied when the PC is dominated?

For example, let's take an Epic Tier Knight who uses the Defend the Line stance with a hammer, and has the feats Hammer Shock, World Serpent's Grasp, and Overwhelming Impact. Assume the Knight is already Slowed from an earlier attack.

A Mind Flayer Mastermind uses its Enslave power to dominate the Knight. The Mastermind forces the Knight to make an MBA against a Druid ally. The MBA hits. Aside from the damage, the following effects can be applied:

1. Hammer Shock can Rattle the Druid
2. World Serpent's Grasp can knock the Druid prone (because the Druid is already Slowed)
3. Defend the Line can Slow the Druid, or Overwhelming Impact can convert the Slowed to Dazed.

Which conditions are imposed? For #3, who decides which?

I don't have the text for the feats/stances you listed handy, so I'm looking at this from a more general perspective.

Looking at a snip of text for the dominated condition...
[sblock]
You can’t take actions. Instead, the dominator chooses a single action for you to take on your turn: a standard, a move, a minor, or a free action. The only powers and other game features that the dominator can make you use are ones that can be used at will, such as at-will powers. For example,
anything that is limited to being used only once per encounter or once per day does not qualify.
[/sblock]


Therefore, (without trying to over think it) I would say that if the feat/rider effect can be done at will (or otherwise is a general modification to how your at-will works, such as via an already active stance), then the dominator can make the target use it.

Conversely, if any of those mentioned rider effects are once per encounter or something, then no (for instance, it can't make you add on your power strike ontop of your hit, for two reasons: one, because it's a free action which counts as a separate action and, two, because it's not at will and instead a limited resource).


Of course, what do I know?



And why are you trying to whack druids with your hammer at epic level? You have some serious 'splainin' to do!

 

[Morrus]

I don't expect a wizard to have a detailed knowledge of the combat maneuvers a fighter might pull off. I tend to say "use the best ranged attack available" or somesuch, leaving the player to decide (they tend to be pretty good about it).

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Therefore, (without trying to over think it) I would say that if the feat/rider effect can be done at will (or otherwise is a general modification to how your at-will works, such as via an already active stance), then the dominator can make the target use it.

All of the effects I referred to are usable at-will as riders to the MBA attack in question. The thing is that they are optional, and case #3 is an either-or.

And why are you trying to whack druids with your hammer at epic level? You have some serious 'splainin' to do!

Hey, I need to be ready to help out the DM when he has to adjudicate that Druid's pain! Would you feel better if I had made it an insufferable Vestige Warlock instead?

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I don't expect a wizard to have a detailed knowledge of the combat maneuvers a fighter might pull off. I tend to say "use the best ranged attack available" or somesuch, leaving the player to decide (they tend to be pretty good about it).

So you would leave it up to the Dominated character's player, but expect them to choose the nastiest options for the situation?

 

[Morrus]

So you would leave it up to the Dominated character's player, but expect them to choose the nastiest options for the situation?

Yeah. Admittedly you need the right players to do that.

 

[fba827]

All of the effects I referred to are usable at-will as riders to the MBA attack in question. The thing is that they are optional, and case #3 is an either-or.

in that case (it still being one single action, it's not a limited resource, etc) ...

unleash it all, even the optional components, since it's all available as part of the at-will single action that the dominator is making your PC use.
(and in the case of the either/or rider effect, it's the dominator that technically would choose, but for simplicity, i'd probably do like Morrus described and tell the player "unleash the worst you can do with that single at-will attack" -- then again, i know i can (generally) trust the people I play with to keep in the spirit of things)

but, again, that's just my interpretation of it all.

Hey, I need to be ready to help out the DM when he has to adjudicate that Druid's pain! Would you feel better if I had made it an insufferable Vestige Warlock instead?

Well you could always let your PC become a recurring villain(s) (aka DM's helper). Therefore you wouldn't have to worry about being dominated and could just always attack the PCs without limitation! problem solved

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think you're a looking at it the wrong way. If the character is dominated, that character isn't a puppet acting under the direct control of the monster. It's a suggestion; a brainwash. (in most cases,certainly the case when dealing with illithids)

I'd say the character would treat the former-ally as an enemy and go all out, in the majority of cases.

This.

I sometimes get tired of player's rule and word meaning shenanigans when confused and dominated. A dominated creature would go full out on the options.