Dozens of Minions, Bad Idea?

[silentounce]

My players recently fought a minion battle. They were all first level.

Players:
Dragonborn Paladin
Elven Rogue
Human Wizard
Human Cleric
Dwarven Ranger
Dwarven Fighter

They fought two waves of sahuagin minions, which I lowered from level 6 to level 2, using the rules in the DM's guide. They chewed through them like a berserk chainsaw. The first wave was 15 minions, the second wave of 11 flanked them from behind two turns into the fight (there were about 4 minions left then from the first wave). I gave the sahuagin 2 javelins each, with their standard 4 damage per hit. Not one of my players dropped below 0, and I think only one was decently bloodied by the time it was over. With the Wizard's Scorching Burst, the Paladin's breath weapon, the Ranger's Twin strike, the Cleric's Divine Glow, and the Fighter's Cleave, it was a slaughter.

Well, 26 level 2 minions is supposedly equivalent to 6.5 level 2 monsters. And you had 6 level 1 characters. So your encounter was only one level above normal and came in two waves. That's not a surprising outcome.

That said, I think using an encounter consisting entirely of minions is okay. But doing that multiple times in the course of gaining one level seems like it might make things a bit too easy for the PCs. Especially if they have attacks that can effect multiple targets.

 

[Squire James]

As a counterpoint, I have a group of 2 players (with a story-driven NPC to round them out a bit) who both chose single-target strikers (warlock and rogue). An encounter with one leader and a bunch of minions killed 1 player, killed the NPC, and temporarily made the other player a minion (i.e. 1 hp).

Well, it was really more the Goblin Hexer with its insanely-strong at-will power, but I'm sure they would have fared a lot better if they didn't actually have to spend a full action on each and every minion!

 

[silentounce]

As a counterpoint, I have a group of 2 players (with a story-driven NPC to round them out a bit) who both chose single-target strikers (warlock and rogue). An encounter with one leader and a bunch of minions killed 1 player, killed the NPC, and temporarily made the other player a minion (i.e. 1 hp).

Well, it was really more the Goblin Hexer with its insanely-strong at-will power, but I'm sure they would have fared a lot better if they didn't actually have to spend a full action on each and every minion!

Yeah, a +7 Fort attack against a first level warlock and rogue will lead to that. The power isn't insanely strong by itself, but in that situation.... What were their Fort defenses? 12? How many minions were there? What was the total XP of the encounter? More info would give us a better idea of what happened. What class was the NPC? Were the characters fully rested? Etc.

 

[Hambot]

I made the zombie minions way more scary and zombie like by making them bloodied first time they are hit, then dying on the second hit. I gave them zombie weakness as well, so critical hits kill them outright.( I also made critical hits let a player get 1 hit on an adjacent zombie too, as they were starting to get overwhelmed when they started rolling crits)

Gives them that resilient zombie feel. Minions are a strikers worst nightmare too - chopping through them one by one the PC's started to feel pretty desperate! And it forced the areas of effect users to double blast large numbers of the zombies to kill them, so the players halved their area mow down power, but happily worked together to end the zombie menace!

 

[LowSpine]

If you want some scarier zomies, just add something like the following to their abilities:

Resilient: When a zombie minion takes damage, it is knocked down instead of destroyed on the roll of a or .

And if you were to create a leader type monster for these, like a Human Zombie Master, you could give the leader Heightened Zombie Minion Resilience, which increases the Resilient range to 4+ for minions within 10 squares of the Zombie Master. How do you like them minions that keep standing back up?

You could just make it a save in the same way things get a save when they potentially fall to their death when pushed over the side of a cliff.

This gives them a better than 50% chance of survival for each hit (in my opinion that is what zombies are all about and don't forget a critical, head shot, takes them out) - but that might make them easily worth level 3.

Plus this ability should only work if they are not already prone. If they are prone they die. This fact would mean a good tactic would to knock a load down and then take them out.

ZOMBIE RESILIENCE.

Trigger: When the Zombie Minion is hit (and killed) and is not prone or helpless. A prone or helpless zombie cannot use this ability and dies instantly.

The Zombie gets to make a save.

SUCCESSFUL SAVE: The zombie remains alive but is knocked prone.
FAILED SAVE: The zombie dies.

 

[Jhaelen]

That said, I think using an encounter consisting entirely of minions is okay.

Hmm, I don't know. It may depend on the type of minion you use. I think most minions don't work well on their own. Their effectiveness multiplies if you add a single leader.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

You could just make it a save in the same way things get a save when they potentially fall to their death when pushed over the side of a cliff.

This gives them a better than 50% chance of survival for each hit (in my opinion that is what zombies are all about and don't forget a critical, head shot, takes them out) - but that might make them easily worth level 3.

I like this idea. This does make zombie minions worth twice as much: half of minions make thier save, and then half of those save again, and then halve of those save again... on average, this means if there are 4 minions, it takes 8 kills to take them out.

For the zombie rotter, which seems weaker than other level 1 minions, thus probably does put it around the level 3 mark.

If such a power were t be added to non-minion zombies, it's not as dramatic, but should probably still add one to their level. Here's the write-up I'm thinking of using, inspired by the troll healing ability:
It Won’t Die • Healing
When a zombie is reduced to 0 hit points by a blow that is not a critical hit, make a saving throw. On success, the zombie rises on its next turn (as a move action) with hit points equal to its Healing Surge value (or 1 hp if a minion).

 

[webrunner]

My friend, who isn't into D&D, was reading Treasures of Talon Pass and saw "10 Pack Zombies" and made a joke about "they should have made it a 12 pack"