D&D 3E/3.5 [Dragon] #307 - 3.5 Changes: Some we know, some we don't...

[Shaele]

Bull! It's time to say the nerf bat has been applied.
OfficeRonin

I'm a little concerned as well. In current 3e rules, the only weakness that a fighter has compared to the rest of the party is his poor will saves. We've had a few fighters played with high wis scores and Iron Will - and they're basically unstoppable at low-mid levels.

Those arguing that "save or die" is unfair to the poor fighter have never seen a wizard get taken from full hp to -15 in a single hit, or a cleric take full damage and die from a failed reflex save. Every class has a weakness; players need to work around them, or have a group of friends to help mitigate the risk.

I just started a sorcerer in a new campaign, and I'm already dreading the 3.5 changes. We have a wizard, so my Haste isn't worth taking anymore, my Hold person has become pretty lame, and now my Polymorph Self becomes useless for travel and scouting... Oh joy, I can't wait to see what other changes make it in.

 

[Murrdox]

Didn't notice and too lazy to look, but is Harm still 6th level? Maybe they bumped Slay Living up to 6th if it is?

WRT Hold, this is another change that I didn't know needed to be fixed (like DR). Right now I'm concerned that this change is a bad one. As someone else said, I like the idea in principle, but I don't know if it was executed right.

IceBear

Also WRT Hold... personally, I'm much more worried about my PLAYERS surviving against Hold than I am my monsters and such. I think this mechanic will make Hold less lethal for players, and it will make fights more interesting.

Just think about it... no more worrying about whether or not the players will defeat your BBEG, just because you rolled crappy on the BBEG's saving throw vs. Hold! Now, you might have a chance to recover from it before the players can get over to you and do a Coup de Grace. It will mean that larger creatures who simply roll poorly on their save will get Held for 1 round or maybe 2. Lower level characters for whom the save is more difficult will probably still be Held for the majority of the spell's duration, but it gives them a chance to roll lucky and break free.

I think this is good, because whenever I toss in Hold Person vs. my players at lower levels, I always worry that if they start rolling really bad on saves, I could hold them all, and we'd have a TPK on our hands.

 

[andargor]

Just my Turkish $0.02 on the new Hold.

I like the fact that you allow the target to "resist" the magic by allowing a save every round.

However, I think that even if the save is made, the spell should still be in effect for the duration. So a save is made every round for the duration: on a successful save, the character prevails against the effects of the spell and can act, and on a failure she is overwhelmed and is held. Since it's a Will save, it makes for good RP opportunities.

Makes it more interesting for the held character, no?

Andargor

 

[kigmatzomat]

However, I think that even if the save is made, the spell should still be in effect for the duration. So a save is made every round for the duration: on a successful save, the character prevails against the effects of the spell and can act, and on a failure she is overwhelmed and is held.

Oooh, I like. Fighters don't get their weakest save boosted too terribly and it does eliminate some of the CdG issues. This turns hold into an ongoing issue rather than an all or nothing. Require a free action to resist and I'm happy with it. I might go ahead and implement it in my 3e game....

 

[Murrdox]

OOOOhhhhh....

CRAP! You're talking about letting the character save EVERY TURN?

Meaning that if he succeeds against the save, he still has to save NEXT round or be held?

So you could have characters that save for 4 or 5 rounds... only to suddenly stop in their tracks? And characters who never know if they'll be paralyzed for the turn or not?

This strikes me as REALLY amusing. It keeps Hold powerful without making it boring for the players. I'm really tempted to use this method!!

 

[Shalewind]

OOOOhhhhh....

I agree, awesome! ::yoink::

Sounds like an excellent way to balance it out.

 

[drnuncheon]

Bull! It's time to say the nerf bat has been applied.

I have not seen any bones tossed to spellcasters -- only nerfs. Not one. Instead of the fighter being taken out for the full effect because he failed his will save (probably because he dumped on his Wisdom), the wizard and the cleric are taken out for their careers because their effective strategies at low levels are gone. Tell me what a low level cleric or wizard (up to 4th level) can do against a fighter. Nothing.

And that means what?

Nothing.

Because D&D isn't about a low level cleric fighting a fighter. It's not designed to be an arena game, it's not balanced to be an arena game. It's about that low level cleric and that low level fighter and two other guys going off to fight monsters. It's about teamwork.

That's what most of these "OH MY GOD X is NERFED/TOO POWERFUL" threads forget, IMO: it's not about whose hind end you can kick working on your own. It's about whose hind end you can kick working as a team.

It's a commonly held believe that at high levels D&D goes from a "team game" to "Mr. Wizard and Friends". Most of the so-called "nerfs" force the spellcasters to - my God! - work with the other PCs instead of turning them into one-man engines of destruction.

To which I say: good. Why should the other classes wind up as glorified meat shields for the spellcasters?

My God, to listen to the volume of complaints, you'd think that by changing these spells they were removing every spell above first level, and magic missile besides. You've got a couple of hundred other spells, use them.

I'll be happy to see the nerfing of 'must-have' spells. If they're no longer 'must-have' then the following desirable effects occur:

a) more variety in spell choice (since that 'must-have' slot is open)
b) more creativity in spell usage (since the 'easy win' is gone)

J

 

[officeronin]

Whoa! What?

It's 10 points of damage, not a 1d10 points of damage per level. That 15th level cleric is going to do an average (read always ) of 150 damage. Sure, the touch attack can miss... But it isn't unlikely and with a save it's still 75 points of damage. Ouch. Not as bad as it used to be, but it's not a never use in my book.

No, factor it all in. He can miss, they can save, the cleric gets mauled when he tries to cast (with appropriate failure of the concentration check), etc. Even then, it will never kill. It's fine that it requires an attack roll, fine if it allows a save, ok that it requires melee range -- but all three? Not for that effect.

OfficeRonin

 

[drnuncheon]

He can miss,

Touch spells don't go away when you miss.

they can save, the cleric gets mauled when he tries to cast (with appropriate failure of the concentration check), etc.

I'd say that's a failure of the cleric, not the spell. If he's casting in melee combat without maximum concentration & Combat Casting, he's a fool. He ought to be casting beforehand and holding the charge, then moving in to attack.

Even then, it will never kill. It's fine that it requires an attack roll, fine if it allows a save, ok that it requires melee range -- but all three? Not for that effect.

How do you feel about the Inflict Wounds spells, since they're all the same?

Also, I'm not sure if the "never kill" has been verified - like the "haste affects multiple targets" it's been suggested in some places but not others.

J

 

[officeronin]

Because D&D isn't about a low level cleric fighting a fighter. It's not designed to be an arena game, it's not balanced to be an arena game. It's about that low level cleric and that low level fighter and two other guys going off to fight monsters. It's about teamwork.

Apparently it's not about balance to you. You claim that you have problems with D+D being about Mr. Wizard and friends. With all the nerfs to their damage and "fighting" capability, the only things wizards and clerics can do are buffing their fighter friends. Suddenly, the game is now Mr. Fighter and friends.

OfficeRonin