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Dragon Con: A Sight of the Schism in action

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Videogames?

I started with PONG! As an arcade game!

I dropped so many Deutsche Marks into that thing (we lived in Germany at the time, and were on vacation), we bought a Pong console when we got back home.

Then came the 2600.

Then came the Apple IIe. And the Macs.

Now a Wii.
 

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This sort of dismissal surprises me. When I see people post that what happens on messageboards is not representative and what happens at conventions and gamedays is not representative and what happens at gamestores is not representative and then theorize that there are vast numbers of people who there is no way to poll and no way to be sure even exist in any substantial number with a specific viewpoint, I have to be skeptical. I mean, if you want to believe it, more power to you, but it doesn't even rise to the level of insufficient data. The fact of the matter is that people on messageboards, at convention and gmedays, and in gamestores are precisely representative of what they play and think. They just happen to be people who you can actually count and poll.

I see the Edition Wars even in everyday life.

At my workplace, a few months ago I was assigned to a new team at the call center I work at. A dozen and a half people are on that team, of which it turns out a half-dozen are gamers, albeit more-or-less casual ones. One even went to the Dragon Con that started this thread (not for the gaming, she's more into cosplay and sci-fi), and cautiously I broached the question of what their edition of choice was. The answer was unanimous, they were all 3.5 players, and avoid 4e like the plague.

None had ever even heard of PF, they just knew they didn't like or want 4e and were still playing the D&D edition they liked.

Yes, I've seen 4e players in the real world, and I've seen just as many, or more 3e players that have just quietly gotten off the edition treadmill at 3.5. They don't buy new products, and probably won't touch PF, and they can sit around with their older edition PHB, MM, DMG and any other books and play for the rest of their lives with their friends and "drop off the grid" from the larger D&D community, especially when some communities online aren't very friendly to older edition adherents.

What really bothers me is that there are so many people who so quickly dismiss any evidence that there are still 3.5 players out there as irrelevant. Just as WotC put fertilizer for an edition war with the "bullet to the head" and "not fun" cracks (among others), 4e fans that claim that the presence of 3.x fans on message boards, in game stores, at conventions ect. are irrelevant and there are vast hordes of 4e players and that players of any other edition is a tiny and very vocal minority.

Yes, as the currently supported edition of D&D, 4th edition is going to have a lot of players as it benefits from marketing and ease of obtaining the materials, and some people do prefer it over other editions, but of the millions of people who play D&D how many just suddenly switched over? Of those vaunted hordes of quiet, casual gamers that don't go online to message boards and attend major cons, how many really bought 4e and switched their campaigns just because it was the new edition (especially given the vast changes between 3.5 and 4e in both setting presumptions and system)?
 

carmachu

Adventurer
And there's a question: is the current RPGA representative of the D&D community at large?


Doubtful. Neither is Pathfinder society.

I played alot of RPGA events in 2nd, even though I didnt like the rules. I love 3.5 adn Pathfinder, but doubt I'll be actually going to any events anytime soon. I cant be alone in that.
 

Reigan

First Post
If 4e had turned out to be PF style upgrade, more of 3.75 if you like it just would not have sold. People crying out for change would not have bought it, many of the 3.5 fans would have chosen to stay put not wanting to fork out yet more cash on what was basically the same game for a second time.

The problem was, no matter how many people liked 3e, it was done, complete, nothing new could be added to it that would sell in sufficient quantity to support a company the size of WotC. (Paizo are the right sized company to fill that niche with an edition that could have killed Wizards, they can grow their company from there.)

There are just too many types of gamers for a "one size fits all" set of rules. The 3e era was a brave experiment, it just couldn't last. With lots of alternatives available now, lets all move on in peace.
 

BryonD

Hero
If 4e had turned out to be PF style upgrade, more of 3.75 if you like it just would not have sold. People crying out for change would not have bought it, many of the 3.5 fans would have chosen to stay put not wanting to fork out yet more cash on what was basically the same game for a second time.

The problem was, no matter how many people liked 3e, it was done, complete, nothing new could be added to it that would sell in sufficient quantity to support a company the size of WotC. (Paizo are the right sized company to fill that niche with an edition that could have killed Wizards, they can grow their company from there.)
I agree, it is just too bad they didn't come up with an alternative that could repeat the boom that 3E saw, rather than one that created the fracture we have now.

There are just too many types of gamers for a "one size fits all" set of rules. The 3e era was a brave experiment, it just couldn't last. With lots of alternatives available now, lets all move on in peace.
If we agree that there are lots of people who ARE moving on in different directions and there are very legitimate reasons for both loving 4E and for being not at all in favor of 4E, then cool.
 

Dannager

First Post
Yes, as the currently supported edition of D&D, 4th edition is going to have a lot of players as it benefits from marketing and ease of obtaining the materials, and some people do prefer it over other editions, but of the millions of people who play D&D how many just suddenly switched over? Of those vaunted hordes of quiet, casual gamers that don't go online to message boards and attend major cons, how many really bought 4e and switched their campaigns just because it was the new edition (especially given the vast changes between 3.5 and 4e in both setting presumptions and system)?
Lots.
 

Votan

Explorer
Some of the comparisons are just perspective based on the observers prior experiences. Personally, as a semi-grognard, when I play fantasy computer games, my default comparison, if I had to describe them to myself or another, would be to say that they are like Dungeons and Dragons. I would say this of any number of games from Diablo to World of Warcraft to Bard's Tale to Heroes of Might and Magic. To me, fantasy gaming is Dungeons and Dragons and everything else derives from it. To another, younger person though, World of Warcraft may be their gateway into fantasy games of any genre and thus the default comparison.

This is, granted, a seperate issue from those 4e detractors who try to disparage 4e by making the comparison. I think it behooves 4e promoters to discern the intent of the statement before automatically getting upset. Otherwise you might find yourself attacking someone who actually is trying to make what is to them a favorable comparison.

I agree with this (rather strongly). World of Warcraft is a beloved and highly successful game with a lot of adherents who have greatly enjoyed it. I see it as a compliment for people to compare D&D to it (just like the reverse woudl aslo be a compliment). Great ideas come from many sources and it's fine to trade them back and forth with another gaming environment.

And I say this as 3.5/Pathfinder type . . .
 



Mathew_Freeman

First Post
I haven't been keeping up with the thread, but just wanted to chime in on my experience with the "schism" at WWD&DGD on Saturday.

I was there all day and spoke to about ten people that had come in to see what was going on. They were a mix of 3e and 4e players, but interestingly all the 3e players said that their opinion of 4e had improved after playing it. More than one used the word "enthused" :).

My point is simply this - it's really hard to know who does/doesn't like 4e until they've actually played it, and a good game (in whatever edition) is always more fun than a bad one, no matter what system you're using. Happily, I was in a good game.

Looks like in Brighton, UK, the schism isn't really an issue.
 

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