Dragon Con: A Sight of the Schism in action

[Shemeska]

I should note that the WoD dissatisfied folks are not very vocal and militant about it. I mean, when nWoD is brought up they grumble, but it's not "go on messageboards to yell about it" type of disatisfaction. At least, of those that I know.

But the marketing and leadup for oWoD/nWoD was a bit different than the 3e/4e changeover from WotC. For instance, we never saw, "Tzimisce? Bullet in the head." So the 4e reaction from the start seemed primed by WotC to be much more vocal than the oWoD/nWoD changeover, or SR3/SR4.

 

[Mark]

For 4e maybe, but even then I'd need to be convinced. Unless I specifically hit WotC's site I don't see much about the RPGA online, and at least in my experience if you aren't already a member involved with them, it doesn't seem to have all that much visibility. Not being a member, quite literally I never saw them at GenCon - they were holed up in a big room somewhere, but I never saw it.

 

[BryonD]

I'll happily argue with people all day on message boards.

If you are playing 4E and someone starts insulting you or it while you are gaming, I'll applaud whatever response you take.

 

[Campbell]

Mark,

I might be mistaken here, but I actually believe that convention goers, message board posters, and even game store customers aren't representative of the entire D&D community for a simple reason - most people who play D&D don't go to conventions, spend a good deal of time discussing D&D on the interwebs, or even go to game stores. Those are fringe activities of the hardcore.

I would guess that most people who play D&D get together with their friends at someone's house and knock dice about 2-4 times a month, and they really don't talk about the game outside that group of friends. They probably also buy D&D books and minis at book stores or online. For stuff like dice and mats they probably buy stuff online or might stop into a game store every so often. At least that's been the experience I've had playing D&D since high school. I've always been the exception in the groups I've played in as far as actually spending time on the internet talking about D&D.

 

[Mark]

Mark,

I might be mistaken here, but I actually believe that convention goers, message board posters, and even game store customers aren't representative of the entire D&D community for a simple reason - most people who play D&D don't go to conventions, spend a good deal of time discussing D&D on the interwebs, or even go to game stores. Those are fringe activities of the hardcore.

I would guess that most people who play D&D get together with their friends at someone's house and knock dice about 2-4 times a month, and they really don't talk about the game outside that group of friends. They probably also buy D&D books and minis at book stores or online. For stuff like dice and mats they probably buy stuff online or might stop into a game store every so often. At least that's been the experience I've had playing D&D since high school. I've always been the exception in the groups I've played in as far as actually spending time on the internet talking about D&D.

Maybe but you have to ignore hard data and go on a guess and a thimble of annecdotal evidence to be correct. You might as well guess that most non-convention-attending, non-gamestore going, non-messageboard-using D&D players frequently wear black shirts. It might be a safer guess and you'd have just as little hard data to back it up. Also, your theory requires belief that those who go to gamestores frequently, attend conventions or utilize messageboards are actually the opposite of being representative of D&Ders as a whole (a sort of abborent minority), and I've not seen evidence to support that. So, I hear you and understand your premise but am not inclined to ignore some evidence in face of a guess and no evidence.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

The Edition War (tm) even exists between myself and my best friend. He and I don't even play together at all any more.

 

[Banshee16]

I think it's a mistake to imagine that what goes on at DragonCon (or even GenCon or PAX) is anywhere near representative of the D&D or tabletop player base at large.

Someone mentioned that they're surprised that the schism reaches beyond those on messageboards. The reality is that the ones posting on messageboards are probably the same ones griping about it in real life at conventions. The vast majority of people are just playing the game they enjoy.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that the schism might in fact exist. There have been tonnes of accounts on these boards of people seeing things related to the schism, outside of the boards. Whether these anecdotes are from gaming groups, in conventions, in stores, etc.

I would suspect that you're getting people from different subgroups complaining in different venues. I know lots of gamers who don't post a single time online (post about gaming, that is).

Banshee

 

[Dannager]

Maybe but you have to ignore hard data and go on a guess and a thimble of annecdotal evidence to be correct. You might as well guess that most non-convention-attending, non-gamestore going, non-messageboard-using D&D players frequently wear black shirts. It might be a safer guess and you'd have just as little hard data to back it up. Also, your theory requires belief that those who go to gamestores frequently, attend conventions or utilize messageboards are actually the opposite of being representative of D&Ders as a whole (a sort of abborent minority), and I've not seen evidence to support that. So, I hear you and understand your premise but am not inclined to ignore some evidence in face of a guess and no evidence.

Hard data nothing.

WotC holds that 6 million people play D&D (in one version or another) according to recent court documents.

There are not anywhere near 6 million people attending cons (you could take every GenCon attendee, ever, and then quadruple that number, and you still wouldn't have close to 6,000,000).

There are not anywhere near 6 million people discussing D&D actively online.

There are not anywhere near 6 million people huddling in the corners of game stores.

Surround yourself with the hardcore and that's all you're going to see.

 

[Dannager]

I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that the schism might in fact exist. There have been tonnes of accounts on these boards of people seeing things related to the schism, outside of the boards. Whether these anecdotes are from gaming groups, in conventions, in stores, etc.

I would suspect that you're getting people from different subgroups complaining in different venues. I know lots of gamers who don't post a single time online (post about gaming, that is).

Banshee

I believe the schism exists. It exists online, and it exists in real life. But it barely registers on the radar of your average tabletop gamer. For instance, I'd put money on most D&D players not even knowing what Pathfinder is. The edition wars are being carried out in the fringes of what is already itself a fringe.

Even calling it a schism might be overdoing it. A moderate crack, perhaps.

 

[Tiberius]

For instance, we never saw, "Tzimisce? Bullet in the head."

We should have, though; the degenerate Fiends should have been staked out for the sun. I may be biased, though, being a Tremere loyalist.

The reference made to the Mage 2e -> Mage Revised transition is fairly apt to this discussion, I think. The new edition updated and greatly improved the underlying ruleset (a point, I will note, that I do not cede in regard to D&D) at the cost of murdering, in the eyes of the 2e fans like myself, the cool bits of the setting. A decade later, it is not unheard-of for a Mage flamewar to kick off; I suspect the furor around either game will not die down anytime soon.