Dragon PC's, or can solo or elite monster PC's be balanced

[Ryan_Singer]

Hi Everybody!

My girlfriends mother expressed interest in playing D&D. She especially wants her character to ride a Dragon. I'm the kind of GM that loves to say yes to players, but this is a doozy.

The setup: me running an adventure for my girlfriend and her mother, both playing 1 Dragon, and 1 normal PC.

After looking through my DMG, MM and PHB, I believe this is doable, but I'm a little worried about how to plan encounters. Because a larger, more mature Dragon is more satisfying, I decided to go with Adult Dragons, making this a firmly paragon-level adventure. Given the most powerful adult Dragon, the Red, is a 15th level Solo, I'm calling the whole game at 15. Each player gets a 15th level Dragon, and a 15th level PC.

My Question is: What do you think is a legitimate XP Budget to throw at these ladies? Do I count a Solo as 4 of the same level, on the PC side? If so, we are looking at a 10 PC Party, which doesn't have a listing in the DMG .

There are only going to be 6 PC's worth of available actions (each dragon gets 2 attacks per round, each PC gets 1), so I am tempted to go about this as a normal 6-person group for balance factors. Anyone think it won't work? I'd love some constructive advice...

 

[Krensus]

The first thing I think you have to consider is whether the dragons will gain experience along with the two PCs. If so, because they are more powerful than player characters, there becomes an issue of whether or not they receive the same amount of xp a character does at the end of an encounter. In your proposed method of deciding what a challenging encounter would be for the party, the xp gained gets turned up while the number of actual characters in the party stays the same, which leads to turbo levelling if xp intended for 10 people is divided by only 4. Due to the nature of this particular game, you may not care, but it is something to consider.

As for the dragon itself and it's worth expressed in PC's, I'd say it's about 2-3. It has plusses to hit that are a bit above the PC curve at 15th level (7+7+3+3=+20 vs. a dragon's +22) and some powerful abilities like stunning every creature in 5 squares. If the dragon does not level along with the party, then this gap will slowly diminish, reducing it's utility at later levels.

The main issue with the dragons are that they will have about 5 times the hit points of a character of 15th level and are Large size, allowing them to completely block off areas and "tank" for the other PCs. To resolve this without making an overwhelming encounter that would be a headache to run, I'd recommend giving all monsters some type of "dragonbane" attack that is identical to their normal attack, but deals an extra 10 damage vs. a dragon. In addition, I'd use several skirmishers or lurkers so that the normal PCs aren't simply hiding behind the dragons and need to move tactically themselves. The key is to keep encounters manageable from your side of the table while still providing a sense of danger and excitement to all members of the party-even if they're a dragon.

To heal the dragon, I'd recommend allowing it to Second Wind as a daily ability, but while out of combat it could use one of the 2 healing surges it has (MM p.7). This allows the party to keep going once the dragons have taken a beating, and for the dragon to be able to heal when it has suffered unexpected damage.

The last thing to consider is the greedy nature of dragons and how big a part that will play in your game. Will they get a share of the loot? Will they have their own item wishlists? Will they contest the other party members for a larger share, or will you play it down such that they are more beneficent?

This sounds like a fun game, but I can see what some of your issues are in planning how to do the whole thing and I wish you the best of luck.

Krensus

 

[fissionessence]

If I were you, I'd take the dragons and change them to be as close to 15th-level PCs as you could. That is, take away their solo hit points, add and take away powers, plus adjust them (especially frequency) to be more like a player's, correct action points and saving throw bonuses, make sure defenses are in line with a player's, etc. The fact that they can fly is probably okay, since you'll be planning around it, and it's probably half the reason they wanted to have dragons anyway. But yeah, I wouldn't try to balance encounters and sessions based on providing a good challenge for two solo monsters and two players; instead, I'd just change the solo monsters to be more like players, then design encounters as normal.

~

 

[Ryan_Singer]

Krensus, As for advancement, the adventure should last about 1 level, so I'm hoping to not have to worry about it. If they really like it, and want to continue, I may tie levelling together, but I'm not sure yet. Having most, if not all weapons be Dragonbane is a great idea! About healing, should I give the Dragon's PC-like amounts of healing surges, or just let them soldier on with their massive stores of HP? I was going to have the Rider's be subservient to the Dragon's, having the Dragons be the primary characters, and the riders being effectively cohorts.

Fissionessence, I did consider that idea before, but I decided that I would rather preserve the awe and granduer behind the dragons, even if that meant them being far superior to their humanoid riders.

 

[Krensus]

Healing surges are probably something you'll have to think about a lot. A red dragon's healing surge would be like 180 hp, still pacing it to be over 5x a level 15 character's healing surge value. With 2 per day, that means that the dragons would have around 10 healing surges expressed in PC terms. As most "soldier" type characters have at minimum 15-16 at that level, you may want to increase their surges per day to either 3 or 4.

 

[icarusfallz]

First off, I have to say that I am of two minds here. If this was a regular gaming group, I would be the first person to scream

MUNCHKINS!
​

That being said, this is your lady and her mom? Awesome, dude. My girlfriend games with me, and her mom is awesome, but lives across the state. If she wanted to play with us, and wanted a dragon pet, I would find a way to make this happen. She probably read the Pern books, and wants that kind of feel. the whole "empathic link" thing. My suggestion (other than listening to the awesome suggestions already made in this thread) is to bend or break every rule in the book to give her mom the experience that she deserves. However, I would be sure to tell her that this isn't standard. If she wants to go on to play an ongoing campaign, She needs to know that those tend to be more restrictive at lower levels, but that role-playing those restrictions can be a lot of fun.

Finally, I would suggest a prelude game. When the characters are teenagers, being introduced to newly hatched dragons, and bonding with them (then going on some kinda harmless adventure like being lost in the woods). This might seem to be a Disney plot, but it will set the stage for them. Also, while you are absolutely right to not want to strip the dragons of thier grandure, I would NOT set this in a standard D&D world, but rather one that doesn't know dragons, except as myths. maybe the PCs come from a small, secluded place that guards dragons/eggs. They "bond" with the eggs, but get exiled for messing with them. Later, while on the road, the dragons hatch, and follow the PCs. I would not go with adult at this point. I would have each session be a seperate part of the PC's life, levelling the PC as needed to fit the chronolgy.

This is giving me so many ideas. You have a lot of fun ahead of you, bro.

 

[Ryan_Singer]

It looks like people are getting interested in the story a bit, so I might as well talk about what I am planning.

I picked Adult, not just for the Grandeur and Awe at interacting with a grown Dragon, but also because Dracoliches are paragon and low-epic enemies!

Basically, my plot is simple: Sometimes a careless dragon falls to adventurers and treasure hunters, but for the most part, Dragons are the most powerful, and stubbornly independent creatures alive. Normally, nothing besides mating can get two of these creatures to interact, and then only for a season, at most.

But a threat to all of Dragonkind is brewing. A splinter-sect of the Cult of Orcus has developed a way to convert a dragon corpse into a completely obedient Draco-lich. They had already killed and animated a dozen Dragons before the word got out. A hastily convened Order of Elder's got together to come up with a solution, but infighting and stubborness kept a solution from being reached. As each elder returned home to fortify their own lairs, the two players (Dragon) received a Vision from Tiamat, jealous of her dominion over Dragons, she provided the PC's with information that can lead them to the Cult, and promised a reward from her Great Horde if they stamped it out forever.

Each Dragon could only afford to carry one servitor and companion, in order to make haste before the Cult creates More Draco-Liches...

 

[icarusfallz]

Sounds great. That also keeps the Dragons in question from being too concerned about treasure. Right now there are more important things brewing.

What about having Bahamut and Tiamat each inspire one dragon to join up with the PCs, to keep that "dominion" idea going. After all, neither dragon god would trust the other to not cause the balance to shift after Orcus' cult is put down.

You might choose to keep the dragons under DM control. Maybe the good and evil dragons fall in love?

 

[Ryan_Singer]

I created a sample set of characters, for one of the players. I'm concerned I might not be able to top this for the second set:

An Adult Red Dragon, let's call him Novarus, until someone comes up with a better name, is our hero; he is just coming into his power as the fiercest and strongest creature in nature. When he was Young, as many Young Reds are apt to do, Novarus allied himself with a Githyanki Gish in order to seek out treasure in conquest to fill his horde. As time went by, his ally grew older, and frailer, while Novarus grew larger and stronger. He would have left the world of the Githyanki decades ago, but the Gish had a son. The boy, named Arik, displayed a gift for tactics and magic from an early age, and grew into one of the most skilled Dragon-rider's in history.

Arik is a Multi-classed Warlord/Wizard, and when I get to my other machine, I'll post his character sheet. While Airborne, he brings a variety of Artillery, from Prismatic Spray, to Scorching Burst. Particularly useful is Spectral Ram, which can knock an enemy prone (causing a crash landing) at range.

In Melee, his role changes to a Support Capacity. His Warlord At-Will is Commander's Strike, which allows his Dragon to make an extra bite attack with a bonus equal to Arik's Int mod. His Warlord powers mostly revolve around giving his dragon more choices and bonus' in combat. The one major exception is Knock Them Down, which is possibly the best power in the book for an aerial battle. You can read it on page 148 of the PHB.

Given how seamlessly these two characters complement each other in battle, I have a high bar to reach in coming up with the other set. I'm considering a Eladrin Archery Ranger / Fey-touched Warlock, for the double trouble of curse+hunters mark+two arrows per round. For best synergy, she would ride a blue dragon, who's strengths are staying airborne and raining down lightning. The Blue would have to be leveled up to 15, but that doesn't sound hard.

 

[Dausuul]

Here's my suggestion: Re-stat the dragons as normal monsters instead of solos. A 15th-level solo is equivalent to a 24th-level normal monster, so you're looking at epic tier if you want them to be comparable to actual adult monster-type dragons.

If you use 15th-level PCs, you're apt to find that the dragons completely dominate the game and the PCs are little more than appurtenances to their mounts. If you use 24th-level PCs on 15th-level solo mounts, on the other hand, the dragons will never be able to hit anything and will always get hit.

Actually, re-working dragons as mounts sounds like a pretty fun project... I might try my hand at it this evening.