Dragons DR/magic=no Dragon DR

[Destil]

DR Magic is one step foward, two steps back. Now all that matters is having at least a +1 weapon.

Personaly, I've been thinking of re-introducing the old + requirements for DR, with the following addition: A magic weapon with at least 1/2 of the ehnancement bonus needed to over come magic DR ignores the first 5 points of DR.

 

[Particle_Man]

The Adult Dragon had as much to fear from a pitchfork wielding commoner as he did from a low level warrior wielding his great grandfather's +1 magic sword, now of course any plused item will wound a dragon. How many +1 magic weapons are there say in the Forgotten Realms given it's long history and magical nations cranking out magic items for sale to the public?

Your problem is easily solved. Stop playing in that high-magic munchkin playground called The Forgotten Realms.

If you play in a world in which magic items are rarer, then this DR will mean something.

Gods, if I were in the forgotten realms, I would be killing commoners for their great grandfather's magic swords, and building a picket fence for my house with them.

 

[the Jester]

CR... You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you
think it means.

I am not left handed.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Personally, I like it at X/Magic for normal dragon DR. It gives the DM the option of, if they wanted to make unique opponents to tweak it a bit. Like as has been mentioned, maybe a half-fiendish dragon that had 5/good in addition to the normal X/magic it enjoys. Even an experienced dragon hunter would have to be on their toes with that one. Your blade needs a magic edge to cut through dragonscales... something's wrong - this dragon is shrugging off blows that should have it already bleeding and thinking of retreat. Wait... is that thing *smirking* at us?


Also kinda makes me think back to Warcraft 2, Beyond the Dark Portal. One of the hero units the orcs could get was an elder dragon who had bolted adamantine plates to his scales. Encased in armor, he was damn near invulnerable. Even other dragons were in absolute awe of this wyrm.

Heh, I liked him.

^_^

Deathwing was the greatest! Now I must stat him up!

ParticleMan

Gods, if I were in the forgotten realms, I would be killing commoners for their great grandfather's magic swords, and building a picket fence for my house with them.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Your problem is easily solved. Stop playing in that high-magic munchkin playground called The Forgotten Realms.

Don't you guys ever tire of that one? Sure, the FR are high-magic, but just take a look at the standard wealth per character level tables and ask yourself where the rest of the money should go if there were no magic. These tables are standard D&D, mind you. High-magic doesn't equal munchkin, not by a long shot.

If you play in a world in which magic items are rarer, then this DR will mean something.

By the time you start going for dragons, I think all characters will have at least a +1 weapon, even in your "non-munchkin"- worlds. Or they have someone who can cast magic weapon (a 1st-level spell for wizards, sorcerers, clerics and paladins.)

Gods, if I were in the forgotten realms, I would be killing commoners for their great grandfather's magic swords, and building a picket fence for my house with them.

So you're the munchkin it seems, for this is out-of-the-book munchkin behavior. So it seems that we must keep these munchkins who would kill commoners for magic loot out of the Realms so the normal players can continue playing normally.

 

[satori01]

Kae Yoss hit the nail on the head, concerning the Forgotten Realms,(which I dont use). Most campaign worlds have histories spanning much greater time periods then our own 2000 years or so of recorded history. How many masterwork,(in real life terms) have been made by humans? Now multiple that figure by increased time span and numerous intelligent races and the preponderance of magic items becomes apparent.

People make magic items in D&D, and in D&D "people" includes a lot of races from elves, dwarves, drows, mind flayers, outsiders so on and so forth.

As for Elder Basilisk, thanks for the Beowulf quotes, always appreciated, but they really dont show much other than one cant directly take story and translate directly to game mechanics.
Frankly Wiglaf's sword and the stabbing dagger could have been made from the same material to bypass DR, Beowulf "gathered his strength" before he struck with the dagger, again maybe he did strike a mighty blow, ohh but that doesnt happen in 3.5 so it cant be that.... the story must be wrong I think you see my point stories provide flavor which you can try to have rules emmulate, but dont try to apply game mechanics,(and especially game mechanics that change like power attack) verbatim to a story as proof of an interpretation.

Now on to you Straw Man argument, I dont believe I have ever said Dragons should have unbeatable Damage Reduction, nor did I explicity state that Dragons should have DR/ unfindable substance,( I did make a vague Adamantium suggestions).

I have said repeatedly that Dragons in 3.0 had damage reduction that increased in both numerical strength,(5/+1. 10/+1) as well as in the power of the magic weapon needed,(10/+1, 15/+2), which is something that is lost in 3.5.

It may not bother you but it does bother me that the Iconic monster,(it's not Dungeons and Demons), loses a very nice defensive power. It cheapens Dragons a bit, it removes a bit of flavor,(the need for strong magic items), inherent in fighting Dragons, ironcialy in serivce to the new DR system that was designed to add more flavor overall to the game.

Are Dragon's gimped, nerfed, spat upon, or generally wrecked by the change...nope still pretty bad mofos in my book.

Does the change really effect parties fighting Dragons...
not really as Stefan argued, for the most part parties had the items needed to overcome 3.0 DR.

It does change the undestructable tone of Dragons a bit, it does make it easier to fight them, a change I'm sure many people like as many felt that Dragons were overpowered in 3.0, I'm just not one of them.

Frankly I will probably leave Dragon DR as is for 3.5/ except for the last DR increase where I will add adamantium to the magic requirement. I think this does a fair job of recreating the strengthing that was in 3.0, and makes ancient Dragons truly fierce.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

... many felt that Dragons were overpowered in 3.0...

Oh, never that. We just felt that they were underchallengerated

 

[the Jester]

Don't you guys ever tire of that one? Sure, the FR are high-magic, but just take a look at the standard wealth per character level tables and ask yourself where the rest of the money should go if there were no magic. These tables are standard D&D, mind you. High-magic doesn't equal munchkin, not by a long shot.

Ignoring the debate over the FR and high-magic vs. low-magic, I think it's easy to justify huge wealth without many magic items.

A 20th-level pc should have 760,000 gp worth of gear. Let's say he's a fighter, just because we're positing a low-magic environment. With that much money, he's probably got his own castle- let's put it on the coast. (I don't have the Stronghold Builder's GB, but my 3.0 dmg calls a castle 500,000 gp). Give him five heavy catapults, a moat with a bridge, and a few warships for coastal defense. Let's give him masterwork full plate & shield and a mw bastard sword, a masterwork mighty composite longbow, and let's see what's left:

Castle- 500,000 gp
5 heavy catapults- 4,000 gp (5@800 gp each)
Moat and bridge- 50,000 gp
4 Warships- 100,000 gp (4@25000 each)
One set of armor/wpns- 3170 gp

total so far: 657,170 gp, leaving less than 100,000 gp left to spend. That's still a lot, but this guy has no servants, nor does he have any magic items, arrows, food, clothes other than a single set of armor, etc. There are a lot of things that can eat up tons of a pc's money. Consider also the possibility that the character's near-million gp is tied up in business assets, including inventory, warehouses, land, and wagons for moving items. Also consider that many pcs have lots of money on hand in case they need it for something.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As for Elder Basilisk, thanks for the Beowulf quotes, always appreciated, but they really dont show much other than one cant directly take story and translate directly to game mechanics.
Frankly Wiglaf's sword and the stabbing dagger could have been made from the same material to bypass DR, Beowulf "gathered his strength" before he struck with the dagger, again maybe he did strike a mighty blow, ohh but that doesnt happen in 3.5 so it cant be that.... the story must be wrong I think you see my point stories provide flavor which you can try to have rules emmulate, but dont try to apply game mechanics,(and especially game mechanics that change like power attack) verbatim to a story as proof of an interpretation.

You're welcome. I see that the "gathering strength" is obviously nothing more than bardic embellishment to explain a critical hit or killing blow. It had no game effect

Now on to you Straw Man argument, I dont believe I have ever said Dragons should have unbeatable Damage Reduction, nor did I explicity state that Dragons should have DR/ unfindable substance,( I did make a vague Adamantium suggestions).

I'm not sure quite how much of a straw-man argument it is. The question is this: is/was the DR intended to make PCs switch to their backup (or tertiary or possibly even further down the wepon chain than that) weapon and/or do something special to injure dragons? If it wasn't then there's no real feature to duplicate (and the legends and stories I've read or heard don't really indicate much in the way of DR at all--just very high hit points and AC (which they have)). If it was then the only DR that will duplicate it in 3.5 IS DR/ unfindable substance. Most 3.5 PCs will at minimum carry an adamantium weapon, a cold iron weapon, some Silversheen, and Oil of Bless Weapon (a lot of PCs will also carry scrolls of align weapon to deal with pesky DR/Lawful and DR/Chaotic). If you want to give 3.5e PCs difficulty, you'll have to come up with another DR. Hence DR/Unobtainium

I have said repeatedly that Dragons in 3.0 had damage reduction that increased in both numerical strength,(5/+1. 10/+1) as well as in the power of the magic weapon needed,(10/+1, 15/+2), which is something that is lost in 3.5.

True. On that count, DR/adamantium at the top level might fit the bill but I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. They'd be practically invulnerable to truly low-level hordes without it and DR/adamantium wouldn't help against the mid (8-14) level hordes who can afford adamantium weapons.

It may not bother you but it does bother me that the Iconic monster,(it's not Dungeons and Demons), loses a very nice defensive power. It cheapens Dragons a bit, it removes a bit of flavor,(the need for strong magic items), inherent in fighting Dragons, ironcialy in serivce to the new DR system that was designed to add more flavor overall to the game.

Are Dragon's gimped, nerfed, spat upon, or generally wrecked by the change...nope still pretty bad mofos in my book.

Does the change really effect parties fighting Dragons...
not really as Stefan argued, for the most part parties had the items needed to overcome 3.0 DR.

It does change the undestructable tone of Dragons a bit, it does make it easier to fight them, a change I'm sure many people like as many felt that Dragons were overpowered in 3.0, I'm just not one of them.

Frankly I will probably leave Dragon DR as is for 3.5/ except for the last DR increase where I will add adamantium to the magic requirement. I think this does a fair job of recreating the strengthing that was in 3.0, and makes ancient Dragons truly fierce.

And it probably won't make much of a difference to game balance the way you describe it. With that explanation, I can see where you're coming from.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I still see the dragons' high natural armor bonus as the thing that makes them invulnerable. You can have a +10 sword, but it won't help you against dragons if you're a newblood yourself.

Ignoring the debate over the FR and high-magic vs. low-magic, I think it's easy to justify huge wealth without many magic items.

A 20th-level pc should have 760,000 gp worth of gear. Let's say he's a fighter, just because we're positing a low-magic environment. With that much money, he's probably got his own castle-

(snip)

total so far: 657,170 gp, leaving less than 100,000 gp left to spend.

Sure, I thougt about your own abode, too. But not every adventurer will want to have a castle. You just can't stuff it into the backpack if adventure's calling, and it won't help you against the monsters you encounter. Some will want to have a castle, but not all. Plus, it would really get crowded.