Drowned from MM3 - Q about Drowning Aura

[shadoelord]

Note: The players character has not fought a drowned, we were merely flipping through books looking at monsters when I noticed the Drowning Aura and was like "Holy @$#% ! +17 grapple check + 20HD + increasing con check ?!? Buh-bye casters.

PC here: The DM is just looking around for things to beat us up with. He has a tendency to always max their HP and other items, but it never really pans out.

Also, its not *just* the drowning aura, lots of Su abilities don't "specify otherwise"..

I'll agree with others when they say it has no duration; but when I read "aura", I don't read continuous, I just read "area affect". For this to be a legit CR9, it seems the affect should be treated as a special attack that takes standard action each round its activated.

All of this falls into the realm of "be clear". If the rules states "it takes a standard action unless otherwise noted" and it lists the (Su) as "special attack", I would think this has a duration of one round, the round it was used as an attack - but then again, there are other (Su) abilities that other creatures have (much higher CR) that read more like continuous. some of them say "at will" and others say "continuous effect".

As to the comment about the Ki strike; it modifies attacks, its not itself a "special attack". The monk doesn't bypass DR of a steel mug when reaching for his favorite ale; "Oh noes! I've spilt my beer!"

 

[moritheil]

PC here: The DM is just looking around for things to beat us up with. He has a tendency to always max their HP and other items, but it never really pans out.

Welcome to the board. It sounds like you (and many others) have a bit of an antagonistic relationship with your DM, which is really unfortunate.

Prior to your post, I was going to comment that the attitudes of many other DMs here border on arrogant. Yes, DM Fiat (rule 0) exists, but repeatedly resorting to that while insisting that the DM is always right will quickly leave you with no players. It is standard courtesy for a DM to note to players what deviations from standard rules they can expect to see.

As to the comment about the Ki strike; it modifies attacks, its not itself a "special attack". The monk doesn't bypass DR of a steel mug when reaching for his favorite ale; "Oh noes! I've spilt my beer!"

It does not matter whether it is an attack or it modifies attacks: your argument is that strictly by rules as written, a supernatural ability requires a standard action to activate unless stated otherwise. Well, if this is a supernatural ability and it does not state otherwise, then by that logic it requires a standard action to activate. To admit that that does not always hold true is to invalidate the former argument as well.

 

[Will]

Here are some supernatural auras:

Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC varies with the type of archon, is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours.

Unnatural Aura (Su)
Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.


It strikes me as more than a little strange to suggest that the lich and wraith have to spend a standard action each round to maintain these effects.

 

[shadoelord]

Welcome to the board. It sounds like you (and many others) have a bit of an antagonistic relationship with your DM, which is really unfortunate.

lol. I've known the guy for 14 years. I know how he thinks

Prior to your post, I was going to comment that the attitudes of many other DMs here border on arrogant. Yes, DM Fiat (rule 0) exists, but repeatedly resorting to that while insisting that the DM is always right will quickly leave you with no players. It is standard courtesy for a DM to note to players what deviations from standard rules they can expect to see.

Indeed. The "I'll not listen to my players" comments are more like "I'll go play by myself" comments. The fact that Darth and I are talking about it is back and forth, we're trying to figure out the mechanics when the authors were very unclear. CR=8 is a bit low for the stats on that beast (and his max hp attitude makes it worse, so we can expect to see this some time soon!).

It does not matter whether it is an attack or it modifies attacks: your argument is that strictly by rules as written, a supernatural ability requires a standard action to activate unless stated otherwise. Well, if this is a supernatural ability and it does not state otherwise, then by that logic it requires a standard action to activate. To admit that that does not always hold true is to invalidate the former argument as well.

Well, he could attack the ale if it was warm, no one likes warm ale! I would think that it was more clear that the ki strike is modified to all attacks, thus "at will". Either way, its a case of poor writing when you have one rule stating an absolute ("unless other wise noted, its a standard action") and then many of your (Su) traits don't otherwise state. <sigh>

 

[calighis]

Minus a cleric the drowned are just ridiculously over powered. At some point you will fail that save and making them activate in my makes them a legitimate CR8. If continuous I would bump that CR to 10 or so.

That being said... when you drown your hit points are reduced to zero. Does that mean that if you fail your save and and take ten points of damage in the same round you die?

 

[darthkilmor]

Minus a cleric the drowned are just ridiculously over powered. At some point you will fail that save and making them activate in my makes them a legitimate CR8. If continuous I would bump that CR to 10 or so.

That being said... when you drown your hit points are reduced to zero. Does that mean that if you fail your save and and take ten points of damage in the same round you die?

Why does having a cleric help?

I agree, as written I think they should be a CR 10-12. Con checks are deadly at just about any level.

Indeed, 0 hp + 1d8+12 slam attack = deads!

 

[Will]

Eh. You just need a single barrier and some ranged attacks, a character or three with Fly, etc.

Drowned are highly situational opponents. If you play to their strengths, they are very deadly. If you play to their weaknesses, they are very easy.

 

[VanRichten]

All of this falls into the realm of "be clear". If the rules states "it takes a standard action unless otherwise noted" and it lists the (Su) as "special attack", I would think this has a duration of one round, the round it was used as an attack - but then again, there are other (Su) abilities that other creatures have (much higher CR) that read more like continuous. some of them say "at will" and others say "continuous effect".

By this definition one could extrapolate that you are stating that a vampire's energy drain attack attached to his slam attack would in essence require him to take a standard action to activate.

The unfortunate problem is that you must understand in order for a Supernatural Ability to require a Standard Action to activate it must have a duration of less than Permanent or Constant.

This means that while a dragon's breath weapon being a Supernatural ability does take a standard action to activate since it is an instantaneous effect, the same dragon's Damage Reduction does not since the duration of said effect has a duration of Permanent or Constant.

This is one of those situations where the player is rules lawyering his way based on a very strict and albeit unwavering interpretation of the rule. The same argument occured involving the creation of magic items in another forum. In that an argument of by the book vs the spirit of the book took place. This was the forum where I stated that by the book one could for 2000gp create a single glove that has a Use Activated Effect True Strike spell. Thus giving the wearer a constant +20 to attack.