Dual Classing - A way to have a character become Triple classed - Comments Please

[Sadrik]

Here is a system for allowing a character to advance in two classes at once. It is similar to the 3.5 gestalt rules, however, it is my hope to not have to limit the character through XP or some other drawback to make this work. The best area, in my opinion, for limiting a dual - classed character is through the class features. If they dual class, they limit themselves by having less class features than a single classes character. I wrote all class features below but that is not my intent. I thought that we could determine jointly which features should be dropped from a dual classed character.

So, how do you triple class? dual class and then take the feats to gain a third class. Easy.

All constructive ideas welcome.

DUAL-CLASSING
At first level, you can select two classes to advance in simultaneously. The multi-classing by feats are still available to both dual-classed characters and single classed characters.
Example: A level 1 Ranger/Wizard is a viable option for a starting character.

Armor Proficiencies
Use the class with the worst armor proficiency

Weapon Proficiencies
Proficiency in all available weapons from both classes

Bonus to Defense
Gain 2 points of defense out of the available from both classes
Example: A Fighter/Wizard can put 2 in will or fortitude or 1 in each.

Hit Points and Surges
Hit Points and Surges will be based on the two roles of the Dual-Classed character
Defender/Defender = HP 15 + con score at 1st and 6/level thereafter, Surges 9 + con mod
Controller/Controller = HP 10 + con score at 1st and 4/level thereafter, Surges 6 + con mod
All others = HP 12 + con score at 1st and 5/level thereafter, Surges 6 + con mod

Trained Skills
Get the free ones and then your overall total is equal to your class with the highest.
Example: Cleric/Rogue would have religion, thievery and stealth and pick 3 others because a rogue can have a total of 6.

Class Features
Depending upon your classes you also gain the following class features:
Cleric- Channel Divinity, Healer’s Lore, Healing Word, Ritual Casting, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol
Fighter- Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, Fighter Weapon Talent
Paladin- Channel Divinity, Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol, Holy Avenger
Ranger- Fighting Style, Hunter’s Quarry, Prime Shot
Rogue- First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack
Warlock- Eldritch Pact, Prime Shot, Shadow Walk, Warlock’s Curse, Implement: Rod, Wand, Pact Blade
Warlord- Combat Leader, Commanding Presence, Inspiring Word
Wizard- Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting, Spellbook, Implements: Orb, Staff, Wand

Power Selection
Select your powers from all available classes. You must have one at-will power from each class.

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

basically not a bad idea, but the 1st level class features must be limited.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I'm not seeing any reason to not do this.

There needs to be a drawback somewhere.

 

[keterys]

You could tier or package the features to a certain extent, so that you go 'Well, divine challenge and sneak attack are both first tier, which do I want' kinda thing.

 

[AMP Productions]

As long as EVERYONE was allowed to do this, it would be even if the monsters were scaled up.
It's like playing with 3 Gestalt characters and 3 Standard... It doesn't work unless everyone does it.

Though, maybe tone it down so you only get the stuff that is left out from the feat multiclassing. If you did it that way, then you could truely have a duel class with everything from both classes.

Makes sense to me. Though some pretty crazy combo's could come out of that, you'll have to playtest it alot.

 

[Sadrik]

You could tier or package the features to a certain extent, so that you go 'Well, divine challenge and sneak attack are both first tier, which do I want' kinda thing.

So, any ideas on how to do that? I think simply distilling them down to the most important ones would be good. Here is the list again:
Cleric- Channel Divinity, Healer’s Lore, Healing Word, Ritual Casting, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol
Fighter- Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, Fighter Weapon Talent
Paladin- Channel Divinity, Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol, Holy Avenger
Ranger- Fighting Style, Hunter’s Quarry, Prime Shot
Rogue- First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack
Warlock- Eldritch Pact, Prime Shot, Shadow Walk, Warlock’s Curse, Implement: Rod, Wand, Pact Blade
Warlord- Combat Leader, Commanding Presence, Inspiring Word
Wizard- Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting, Spellbook, Implements: Orb, Staff, Wand

Here is a potential list:
Cleric- Healing Word, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol
Fighter- Combat Challenge
Paladin- Divine Challenge, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol, Holy Avenger
Ranger- Hunter’s Quarry
Rogue- Sneak Attack
Warlock- Eldritch Pact, Warlock’s Curse, Implement: Rod, Wand, Pact Blade
Warlord- Inspiring Word
Wizard- Cantrips, Spellbook, Implements: Orb, Staff, Wand

Does that cut it down too much? Remember I would like there to be a penalty for dual-classing. Is this enough?

 

[mkill]

The difficult part about building true dual classing in 4th edition is how to handle the roles and the class features connected to it.

If players dual-class within the same role, synergy between the class features can become simply too good. Imagine a ranger-rogue doing both hunter's quarry and sneak attack damage in one strike! That's too much.

On the other hand, if you dual-class across roles, you have the problem that some roles and features just don't mix well. A wizard/fighter can't defend the front lines and give artillery fire from the back at the same time. You might end up with the character that might be able to do two different things a bit, but none really well. Like the 3rd edition bard. The design explicitely aims to avoid that.

There are more issues. For a striker, the damage bonus class feature is key to the role. As is healing for the leader and the marking ability for the defender. The controller at the other hand, where we only have the wizard example now, does not need his class features to work. Implements and cantrips are just icing on the cake.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to do proper dual-classing in 4th edition. But it is very difficult to implement it in a general catch-all way without either being just too good or pretty useless, or worse, both at the same time but for different combinations.

Probably the best way to do it is create a new class that has access to powers from other classes within certain limits. That way, you can keep the whole thing within well-defined boundaries.

 

[Foxman]

I've looked over this and I like the idea of dualclassing but I really don't like triple classing.

I've created my own version of Dualclassing loosely based on this thread here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=4331740

 

[Sadrik]

The difficult part about building true dual classing in 4th edition is how to handle the roles and the class features connected to it.

If players dual-class within the same role, synergy between the class features can become simply too good. Imagine a ranger-rogue doing both hunter's quarry and sneak attack damage in one strike! That's too much.

On the other hand, if you dual-class across roles, you have the problem that some roles and features just don't mix well. A wizard/fighter can't defend the front lines and give artillery fire from the back at the same time. You might end up with the character that might be able to do two different things a bit, but none really well. Like the 3rd edition bard. The design explicitely aims to avoid that.

I agree very appropriate, right now as shown it is not workable. I was not thinking of the cross role problems. Briefly - here is a solution and a very good way to balance the class too. Get rid of the role features and only hold onto the others. That way the character will be sacrificing their role for versatility seems like an excellent trade off.

So, here is what the classes lose:
Cleric- Healing Word
Fighter- Combat Challenge
Paladin- Divine Challenge
Ranger- Hunter’s Quarry
Rogue- Sneak Attack
Warlock- Warlock’s Curse
Warlord- Inspiring Word
Wizard- ???

So, here is what the classes have left:
Cleric- Channel Divinity, Healer’s Lore, Ritual Casting, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol
Fighter- Combat Superiority, Fighter Weapon Talent
Paladin- Channel Divinity, Lay on Hands, Deity Selection, Implement: Holy Symbol, Holy Avenger
Ranger- Fighting Style, Prime Shot
Rogue- First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent
Warlock- Eldritch Pact, Prime Shot, Shadow Walk, Implement: Rod, Wand, Pact Blade
Warlord- Combat Leader, Commanding Presence
Wizard- ???, Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting, Spellbook, Implements: Orb, Staff, Wand

I don't know what to remove from the wizard... Any suggestions?

 

[Cringer_luvr]

Why has no one gone with old 2nd editon dual classing, you advance in a class, then when you decide to dual class, you start over in xp keep your hitpoints and defenses of your 1st class but cant use the powers of your 1st class (if you do you get no xp for the encounter) till your new class passes your 1st class, then you can use the powers and class features of both classes but you can never again advance in your 1st class.