Dungeon Crawls - need pointers and help.

[LostSoul]

Not everything has to perfectly laid out before you. You can just play it by ear if your players trust you. If the PCs set of an alarm, say, you can just say that the other NPCs show up in 6 rounds. Or something like that.

One way of dungeon mapping is to draw a flowchart. Just link the important encounter areas (not just rooms, but passages where something might happen). You can then focus all your energies on developing those few areas.

(I don't actually use this method because I like to draw out the maps; but when I've GMed Star Wars games I never have a map, just a general idea of where things are.)

As far as having something shadowing the PCs, have them make Spot and Listen checks (and oppose them with the NPC's Hide and Move Silently). Just the fact that they have to roll will add tension to the situation. (Don't assume the PCs automatically fail, either - you'd just be ignoring the abilities of the PCs, something they've worked hard to build.) Describe barely missed/made checks as "something in the shadows; it's gone now, maybe it's just a trick of the light" or something like that.

 

[jester47]

I have thought about using a flowchart, and even flowcharting published dungeons. And I ussually do play it by ear.

I think from talking to you guys that my problem is going from the description based to map based and back to decription based.

I think part of the trick is the situations where an attack is not immediately evident. I like to maintain a feeling of continuity. So say the PCs enter a room where some orcs are hiding in the back behind some crates. The orcs don't immediately attack, but if you start laying out the field of battle they players will react differently. Basicly they will start preparing. I think the key here is to have it be clear what each character is doing once they are in the room. Have certain things in clear places. in our example, dont have the crates all over in different places in the room, have one set of crates, in the back.

One thing I do do is I have each player roll a d20 10 times before we start the game. I keep track of the characters flat footed AC, listen, spot, and saves. This way if there is somting hiding or somthing they are supposed to see, I dont have to say, roll a spot check. I can say "Sypa, you think you just saw somthing out of the corner of your eye moving in the darkness."

Another thing that has thrown me off in the past that I am now just getting around because I reread the rules is the problem of constant searching. The first dungeon that I ran with these people they started searching for traps everywhere. Down the halls, in rooms etc. They stopped when I explained that searching constantly slowed them from 300ft per minute to 50ft per minute. Also, I switched from a 5'x5; search area to searching whole areas if the player says to do so.

Anyways, I think I am getting it now, thanks for the help.

Aaron.

 

[ced1106]

I guess a better question is how do you judge time and placement when going from non-combat to combat or critical situations?

Do what's dramatic! Fairness be darned Roll the dice a few times, ask the players what DC checks they succeed at, and fake it. If a player complains, add five levels to the encounter.


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[Mark]

I know a lot of folks who use this method...

 

[jester47]

Hey Mark, thats quite handy! I can put some other tricks around that! What scale is that in? Looks like 30' to the inch. Granted all you have to do is show the general shape of the room. That will help tremendously. Thanks. I like to draw rooms to scale, and I have tons of engineering grade Graph paper. So I think I will go with 25' to an inch. Thus each square on my graph paper is 5'. Funny thing is I used this method on the last session for outdoor stuff but not indoor.

Also, using that system I can cut out certain light ranges and shapes so I know what the players see. So I would have a torchlight (normal) torchlight (lowlight) Lantern shapes etc. This will make things much easier.

I think I am getting it now. Thanks guys.

Aaron.

 

[Alcamtar]

I think part of the trick is the situations where an attack is not immediately evident. I like to maintain a feeling of continuity. So say the PCs enter a room where some orcs are hiding in the back behind some crates. The orcs don't immediately attack, but if you start laying out the field of battle they players will react differently. Basicly they will start preparing. I think the key here is to have it be clear what each character is doing once they are in the room. Have certain things in clear places. in our example, dont have the crates all over in different places in the room, have one set of crates, in the back.

That's what I do. If I know there are monsters in the room, I don't map it out or do anything unusual, I just pay very close attention to what each character is doing and where they are standing. Usually some player is running ahead hoping for first crack at any loot, someone is staying back by the door, etc. If necessary, I cut from one player to the next and ask specifically what they are doing. (I also do this habitually even when no monsters are about. You never know when a wandering encounter might occur.) Only when I say "you hear voices" or "roll initiative" or "you're surprised by..." do we start mapping and go into tactical mode.

Another thing that has thrown me off in the past that I am now just getting around because I reread the rules is the problem of constant searching. The first dungeon that I ran with these people they started searching for traps everywhere. Down the halls, in rooms etc. They stopped when I explained that searching constantly slowed them from 300ft per minute to 50ft per minute. Also, I switched from a 5'x5; search area to searching whole areas if the player says to do so.

Two things help reduce excessive searching: rolling for wandering monsters, and having torches burn out. Also keep in mind that long duration spells are being wasted while searching, so keep track of time spent. For example, if you figure a 1 minute per 5x5 square, a 10x30 room will take 30 minutes -- plus any extra time spend checking traps, opening chests, counting coins, etc. I generally roll once per character per room, whether anything is there or not.

Of course, searching can also help slow things down in the dungeon. My players are fond of holing up in a room and camping for 8 hours to regain spells, because they just run out after a while... if it only takes an hour or two to use all your spells before the need to rest, you can't just sleep 20 hours a day! Searching helps slow things down so that you spend a whole "day" in between rests.

I am very careful to keep track of what OTHER monsters are doing. If a goblin noticed the characters, he'll be cautious for a few founds, then after a minute or two he'll warn his friends and they'll prepare their defenses. If no attack comes in an hour or two, they'll send out spies to see what's happening and may prepare an attack of their own. If the party spends a few days back in town buying equipment and making scrolls, the goblins will almost certainly either vacate the place or get reinforcements. If they vacate, it may leave a power vacuum that other monsters will quickly fill... or the PCs may arrive back to discover the dungeon is empty and stripped of anything valuable... I've also had dungeon inhabitants hire elite NPC "hit squads" to go after troublesome PCs, when the PCs were spending too much time between visits. This both raises the stakes AND diverts a lot of potential loot into NPC pockets.

Mike

 

[Mark]

Hey Mark, thats quite handy! I can put some other tricks around that! What scale is that in? Looks like 30' to the inch. Granted all you have to do is show the general shape of the room. That will help tremendously. Thanks. I like to draw rooms to scale, and I have tons of engineering grade Graph paper. So I think I will go with 25' to an inch. Thus each square on my graph paper is 5'. Funny thing is I used this method on the last session for outdoor stuff but not indoor.

Also, using that system I can cut out certain light ranges and shapes so I know what the players see. So I would have a torchlight (normal) torchlight (lowlight) Lantern shapes etc. This will make things much easier.

I think I am getting it now. Thanks guys.

Aaron.

Those would all be cool additions to the idea. I generally make the line drawings just by eye-balling them roughly to scale. Unless the party is taking the time to map themselves, I figure the best they can do is know the approximate size of the rooms and which way the halls turn. If they are going through a large place, I arase some of the back portion as they go (if a fair amount of time has passed). I also erase previous levels if they go down or up. I figure it is up to them to either map or take their chances that they might forget some of it.

 

[jester47]

Mike, I am printing your post. That is invaluable stuff ant it will really help. Mark, your last suggestion is great! My players have not hit a dungeon that big yet, but now that I have some tricks up my sleeve, they just might.

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

.

Two things help reduce excessive searching: rolling for wandering monsters, and having torches burn out. Also keep in mind that long duration spells are being wasted while searching, so keep track of time spent. For example, if you figure a 1 minute per 5x5 square, a 10x30 room will take 30 minutes -- plus any extra time spend checking traps, opening chests, counting coins, etc. I generally roll once per character per room, whether anything is there or not.
.

Mike

WRT this, my players will search a hallway up to the next door. (well they used to). They would not take 10 but they would search. So it woud take them a minute to move 25' in a 10' wide hallway.

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Thinking about my light idea I decided to give it a shot.

Isn't it great how an idea can crash and burn but from the wreakage comes somthing new?

I made little circles (using some old vellum paper even so you could still see what was lit up!) and then tried to draw out a map and see how it worked. Its great if you are standing there alone but would slow gameplay to a halt while you drew the parts that the characters could see.

However in that process I came up with a sort of Dungeon mapping "quickhand." This goes alot off of what mark conveyed in this post, but I think this will elaborate on it and prove quite useful.

Mark, I can see why you dont draw the corridors. Lines are the best for this. As for the lighting idea, you know how far the characters can see, and you know if they are trying to be quiet or not. If an elf character sees somthingin the dark, then he may or may not convey the info to one of the other characters.

I now have a set quickhand that will allow me to quickly draw what is going on, without slowing the game. I have a symbol for a door, a method for noting passage length ( a number between two dashes: -20- ) and passage width (a number between two brackets [10] ). Lines are passage ways with dots connotating points of interest. Rooms are geometric shapes roughly equivalent to the actual rooms. Inside the sape is the rooms size. I even came up with a notation to indicate that rooms might share a wall. (using {s to point at each other.) This was so that if the map got drawn funny I could show that two rooms were right next to each other. However another use appeared and that is when when you want to break spacial law. Using the brackets you can which is great when magic and the planes are involved.

It all goes together pretty well. Its amazing how easy (and cheap) things get when you put thought behind them.

Aaron.