Dwarven Axe-thrower... how?

[ValhallaGH]

So, I'm starting to empathize with the people who can't build their 'dream character.'

Here's what I want, but can't figure out how to make effectively: a dwarf that wields two axes or hammers, one or both of which is of the throwing variety.

Well, it depends upon what you want said Dwarf to do. It's increasing apparent from your posts in this thread that you want him to be a damage machine instead of really tough, or commanding.

In that case a Two-Weapon Fighting ranger is probably the best way to go. Make sure to pick some powers that work with both Melee and Ranged attacks.
The Heavy Weapon property will only come up on Basic ranged attacks but that's okay. Throwing hammers are not meant for sniping, or other long range engagement, but as a quick and dirty surprise to the guy that thought he was safely across the pit of death.
You'll end up with a pretty good Dexterity simply because Dex is important to all Rangers. So your ranged powers will be useful, if not as good as your melee attacks.

If you want a tough Dwarf with two hammers then the Warhammer / Throwing hammer Fighter or Paladin is a great option. Most of your powers are melee, but you can still make basic attacks with your throwing hammers, leaving foes hurt and squealing.

If you want a leadery Dwarf then a Warlord with two Throwing Hammers or a Warhammer / Throwing hammer combination is also a lot of fun and can be very effective.

Ultimately, it comes down to what type of character you want to play. Two throwing hammers / axes is just a weapon choice, not much of a fighting style or much of a character concept. For real build advice, you'll need to have a bit more developed.

 

[toxicspirit]

Here's a question ...

Would you let the optimized elven Archer-Ranger with his 20 dexterity (at 1st level) use that dexterity exclusively for all of his attacks, whether melee or ranged? If not, then you shouldn't allow the same thing to be done with strength. If you don't see a problem with the above, then go for it. Personally, I would love if my DM let me do this with my Archer, but I would never allow it it games that I run.

 

[Stalker0]

Here's a question ...

Would you let the optimized elven Archer-Ranger with his 20 dexterity (at 1st level) use that dexterity exclusively for all of his attacks, whether melee or ranged? If not, then you shouldn't allow the same thing to be done with strength. If you don't see a problem with the above, then go for it. Personally, I would love if my DM let me do this with my Archer, but I would never allow it it games that I run.

Its not the same, dex is a better stat overall than strength. All strength gives me is a bonus to fort defense. Dex gives more more AC, more initiative, and more reflex defense. So no I would not allow a bow ranger to use dex for melee attacks.

 

[FadedC]

Its not the same, dex is a better stat overall than strength. All strength gives me is a bonus to fort defense. Dex gives more more AC, more initiative, and more reflex defense. So no I would not allow a bow ranger to use dex for melee attacks.

Hmm....well strength is used for armor and a lot of other things. But even if we assume dex is superior (and I'd say it's not so superior to warrant being denied a whole range of powers) would you let a strength based cleric or paladin use strength for all the radiant attacks? Or a charisma based warlock use charisma for all the con attacks?

 

[jaelis]

If you only want to throw, then just have a good dex and use the ranger powers. Carry a dagger for the rare occasions that you need to make an effective ranged basic attack. (You'll want quickdraw anyway, I imagine.)

If you want to mix up melee and throwing, then you'll need good Str and Dex both.

 

[Eldorian]

I don't see a big issue with using str for thrown weapons as a ranger. First off, a thrown weapon is an inferior weapon compared to the longbow, the basic assumed weapon of the archer ranger. Less range, less damage. Also, a thrown weapon is an inferior weapon compared to the battle axe or warhammer. Far less damage.

An inferior weapon with superior versatility? Sounds OK to me.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Well, it depends upon what you want said Dwarf to do. It's increasing apparent from your posts in this thread that you want him to be a damage machine instead of really tough, or commanding.

In that case a Two-Weapon Fighting ranger is probably the best way to go. Make sure to pick some powers that work with both Melee and Ranged attacks.
The Heavy Weapon property will only come up on Basic ranged attacks but that's okay. Throwing hammers are not meant for sniping, or other long range engagement, but as a quick and dirty surprise to the guy that thought he was safely across the pit of death.
You'll end up with a pretty good Dexterity simply because Dex is important to all Rangers. So your ranged powers will be useful, if not as good as your melee attacks.

If you want a tough Dwarf with two hammers then the Warhammer / Throwing hammer Fighter or Paladin is a great option. Most of your powers are melee, but you can still make basic attacks with your throwing hammers, leaving foes hurt and squealing.

If you want a leadery Dwarf then a Warlord with two Throwing Hammers or a Warhammer / Throwing hammer combination is also a lot of fun and can be very effective.

Ultimately, it comes down to what type of character you want to play. Two throwing hammers / axes is just a weapon choice, not much of a fighting style or much of a character concept. For real build advice, you'll need to have a bit more developed.

Yeah, I think that's what I'm trying to figure out for myself.
The concept originally grew out of the idea of having a dwarf paladin with a maul and quickdraw with warhammers as a way to attack a divine challenged opponent at range, thereby meeting the requirement to 'engage' without having to move adjacent. I still like the idea, and that character will be in my stable to be used as required.

But then I got to thinking about all the cool ranger powers that can use 'melee or ranged' and saw the ranger potential. I initally felt hamstrung by the ranger powers using DEX when the heavy throwns make basic ranged attacks with STR. I'm coming to realize this isn't a problem, but I will hold out hope that 'Martial Power' or some other supplement will directly provide a build or at least powers for heavy thrown weapons.

I didn't consider a fighter or a warlord. I can certainly see giving a dwarf fighter a warhammer or throwing axe, but there is no real way to emphasize its use for a fighter.

Dwarf Warlord with thrown heavies... let me peruse the PHB and get back to you...

 

[Plane Sailing]

What's wrong with a TWF Ranger that uses basic ranged attacks when appropriate?

It's not that bad, considering all the other cool stuff a TWF can do, and that all magic weapons are, by default, returning weapons.

I guess the issue is this - you can't use nifty 2[W] or 3[W] powers with heavy thrown weapons and strength if you've only got basic ranged attacks (and it gets even worse at high levels).

Cheers

 

[Andur]

Wish people would stop bringing up the strawman argument of CHA and WIS based powers. Heavy thrown clearly states STR instead of DEX for ranged basic attacks. Stretching it to Ranged powers is "thin", but trying to apply it to Attributes which it could not normally replace is "broke". Most of the CHA or WIS or INT powers have little to nothing to do with the force used to strike the target, but rather tha Divine or Arcane power nestled within the use of the power...

 

[eamon]

Of course, 4e is still much better than 3.5 core at building this dream character - right?

In 3.5 you'd have been stuck with dex as a throwing stat, and that's that - no way around it. Now, at least you can use hammers or axes viably as a ranger's off hand weapon - pretty excellently actually, since you can use the ranged attack when necessary, and many ranger melee powers which require you to wield two weapons actually let you use just one for all attacks (notably all close burst abilities, and things like attacks on the run). So it's probably a little weaker - but still a lot stronger than in 3.5 it ever could have been.

It's a significant boost to allow strength to be used as the primary stat in dex based powers. I'm not sure it's really reasonable to allow that. Perhaps a feat to allow str to replace dex as the damage portion for such powers?

In any case, this disadvantage is only really a problem for the ranger. A Fighter could just take quickdraw and use basic attacks, especially since he has no powers anyway. That would allow him to wield a more powerful two-handed weapon as well, quickdrawing the throwing hammers/axes as necessary while holding the two handed weapon in one hand.