E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Secondly, and I appreciate that this is from a Powergamer / Mechanic POV but I think it's worth addressing, the ethos behind E6 seems to me to entirely obviate the fighter class as a PC class for a longer-term campaign

In regards to this particular point, I'll simply post a link to my response again to the fighter class disappearing: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3628452&postcount=302

As for the rest of it...

People already do dip, multiclassing is rampant (most people like how easy it is to multiclass), and I really don't see how 6 levels total of people dipping into other classes is really going to be a big deal. E6 isn't exactly trying to fix this sort of thing, it's specific goal is to get people to a certain level of power and then freeze things there.

I personally don't really see a lot of the "problems" that people are talking about, other than "such and such is now out of the reach of characters because it requires level X."

Dipping being encouraged, not much point to playing a fighter, and so on... that's just built into D&D already. All E6 really does is happen to highlight what's sitting there in the system.

Me? I'm one of those odd people that's thinking of taking it all the way to 10. wah0000!!11!1 I dunno though, because there's something pretty compelling about stopping at level 6 too. When I can get the group to play it, we'll just have to see how things shake out.

 

[Ry]

Do we round up or down for characters with odd caster levels?

Also, wouldn't these feats give bards access to 3rd level spells (which they can't have at 6th level normally)? Maybe specify that characters can only take spells/slots that they already have access to?

I love the idea of the system, and am in the process of cajoling my players into giving it a try.

Good luck with convincing your players! I'd love to hear how it goes for other people. I had some reluctant players once upon a time, but they were willing to give it a try and now they prefer it to regular D&D (much to the chagrin of another GM I know). If E6 helps the GM stay enthusiastic for their game, it's good for the players too.

For the feats, I updated the wording in the first post to match the rtf file I just posted. That should fix the bard thing.

 

[Shazman]

I'm running the Savage Tide path now. I'm not downing E6, but it seems that eventually PC's abilities will become static. There's only so much feats can do without additonal hit dice and class abilities. Hit points can scale somewhat with improved toughness and toughness, but what about saves and attack bonuses? Once your character has 40 feats and has defeated every CR 12 encounter around, what do they do next? If they try to move on to tougher challenges, they are toast because a 6th level character, even with gobs of feats, can't face those challenges. It seems like things could get very monotonous after the first 10 or so bonus feats. I guess that's to be expected because it doesn't look like E6 is designed to be for long term campaigns.

 

[Ry]

You make it sound so brutal; like the PCs will be bored to tears from fighting CR 12 encounters but die horribly as soon as they fight a CR 13.

I'm pretty sure that's not an implication of the rules, but I admit not having run it past 20 feats. What I can say definitively is that E6 has stayed the heroic fantasy game that I wanted for longer than D&D did.

 

[Ry]

Me? I'm one of those odd people that's thinking of taking it all the way to 10. wah0000!!11!1 I dunno though, because there's something pretty compelling about stopping at level 6 too. When I can get the group to play it, we'll just have to see how things shake out.

Have fun! My only cautious word to you is that if you do go to 10, you may find your players taking on CR 14 threats quite handily before too long, and those can be a pain to prepare.

 

[Shazman]

You make it sound so brutal; like the PCs will be bored to tears from fighting CR 12 encounters but die horribly as soon as they fight a CR 13.

I'm pretty sure that's not an implication of the rules, but I admit not having run it past 20 feats. What I can say definitively is that E6 has stayed the heroic fantasy game that I wanted for longer than D&D did.

I didn't mean that once they fight CR 13 creatures they are history. What I meant to say is once you start getting past CR 12 creatures (the break point you suggested earlier) that it would be increasingly more difficult for the PC's to face these challenges and survive. I've personally experienced how brutal CR 13 creatures can be against a party of 5 9-10th level characters that were optimized pretty well and played by experienced players. D&D is and always has been about advancement. Your characters grow in power and versatility as the campaign progresses. That's part of the fun of the game. In 3.5 the increasingly complex nature of characters at high level is problematic for many players and DM's. I know that E6 is an attempt to address this problem, but maybe it goes a little too far. One one extreme you have E6. On the other you've got epic level characters using 10 splatbooks and rampant multiclassing that are a bookeeping nightmare. Too many options and things become too complex to run smoothly, too few options and stagnation and boredom occur. IMHO a happy medium between the two would make gaming more satisfying for most gamers.

 

[Ry]

Well, again, we'll just have to disagree on that. I think that a small amount of growth + the fact that the world changes as a result of players' actions = not static, but you should use whatever works for your games.

 

[phindar]

Yeah, considering my group tends to lose interest mechanically around 12th level, I think a level cap would be much more likely to be a long term game for us.

 

[Nifelhein]

Ryan, I am working on makign some graphical addition to your final pdf, I am also considering a layout option for it, any preference for fonts for headers and the like? Also, what size would you like to see in it? I kept the one from the rtf right now.

I will try and have some preview for you soon.

Also, to use the OGL you must not use the D&D name at all.

 

[Ry]

Oh, you're right, I forgot to do the search/replace for D&D to d20. Thanks for catching that.

Honestly, I'd like it to look professional. If you have lots of fonts, easily readable is my favorite; nothing garish or intricate. A little use of color would be nice too: I have a color printer and I love to use it.

If I could make one request: Could you post your source file here along with the .pdf once you're done? I'd like it to be something that if someone acquired some art, they could just add it to the document and build off of the layout work that was already done.

I had considered shopping it around to other developers to try to get them to produce it, but I realized that declaring the whole thing OGC and posting it here was probably the faster way to get it into peoples' hands. Clearly, I was right.

Thanks, Nifelhein!