E6: The Game Inside D&D

Ry

Explorer
To me it's important for a player to be able to say "This is the thing that my character is willing to die for."

One nice thing about E6 play is that a brand new 6th level character is definitely playable in a party of 6+10s or 6+20s.

Now picture me as a hibernating bear waiting for spring: When people to get actual games up to the 6+30 range and start running into the issues, I'll talk about this kind of issue from there. But until then worrying about that stuff will get us nowhere. I'm reluctant to get drawn into what-if scenarios that drain precious time away from preparing honest-to-goodness in the flesh E6 games.
 

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Ry

Explorer
Kuni, that game setting sounds freaking cool. Are there any sources of inspiration for the setting besides the Dictionary of Mu?
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
rycanada said:
Kuni, that game setting sounds freaking cool. Are there any sources of inspiration for the setting besides the Dictionary of Mu?

Unquestionably. I've been steeping myself in theme-related material to prep for running the game.

Books/Authors: Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series, Frank Herbert's Dune, Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, Robert E Howard, HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith
Movies/TV: Dune/Children of Dune miniseries, Vampire Hunter D
Games: Chrono Trigger(if all the time periods existed simultaneously), Final Fantasy 6, Secret of Mana, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma

The anime/videogame references seem somewhat odd at first glance, but I'm convinced the similar themes have to do with the fact that Japanese artists were also reading Vance, Dune , and the like.

(It also has to do with advertising -- I'm on a college campus as a grad student, and I figure it'll help someone who hasn't heard of Vance or Howard but has read Dune or played a SNES RPG to know what's up.)
 

Zelc

First Post
rycanada said:
To me it's important for a player to be able to say "This is the thing that my character is willing to die for."
Oh yea, I definitely agree :). The sticky part is what happens afterwards. I'm thinking of running a game in a world where 6th level heroes are rare and famous, and it doesn't seem right to have another suddenly pop up and join the party, you know what I mean? Even another 3rd or 4th level character popping up seems a bit unnatural.

It might be better to talk about it later, but I like to plan really far ahead, heh.

Kunimatyu said:
If the player really wants their character back, there's nothing wrong with having the party go on an adventure to revive him.
What does the player do while the others are resurrecting his character? That's the problem I'm trying to solve with the backup character idea.

c) let them start a lower-level PC and accelerate their XP gain
This sounds like a good idea. I could probably try something like that.
 

der_kluge

Adventurer
I'm curious - from those who have ran E6 (or E8) do you find that the campaign tends to be shorter?

Personally, I see the potential for a shorter campaign a good thing. Most games I've been involved with sort of lose steam somewhere around 10th level, even if they get to that point. So, the idea that you could get to 6th level and then retire is kind of appealing.

Does it play that way, or do the campaigns just go on and on?
 

Ry

Explorer
In my experience, the campaigns go on and on but the characters get retired more often (like, I'm a Duke now, I'm retiring. You kids have fun adventuring and remember that Castle Ausom will always be a safe haven for you). Occasionally they come out of retirement when big things are happening.
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
I'm going to start posting some of my notes for my upcoming "Mord" (Dictionary of Mu) campaign:

Character Generation:

I'm not a big fan of nonhumans (mostly because you really have to play them as people in funny suits, or they become unrelatable) and this setting has much more of a "science fantasy" feel, so I think I'm going to go with humans as the only playable race. (There are some nonhumans lurking in the shadows, like some very Barsoomian four-armed white apes, but that's for later...)

My other reason for doing this was to avoid a non-obvious pitfall of E6 -- when you get bonus feats after level six (and one of those feats grants more skill points), the classic human benefits of an extra feat and skill points don't mean very much. In a standard campaign, this would encourage people to pick exclusively non-human races, losing some of the feel I want.

However, there's still the problem of the extra feat and skill points not being that useful. I've decided to fix that by grabbing one of my favorite d20 books, Iron Heroes, and pulling the Trait system out of it. For those unfamiliar with IH, traits are an alternative way of granting players abilities similar to racial abilities in the standard PHB, but they're based on the character's background and history rather than their race. For example, a character who has the "City Rat" and "Perceptive" traits will be very different from one who chooses "Child of Faith" and "World Traveler". I'm also creating a few unique traits for the world of Mord -- "Child of Atlantis" will give the character the ability to take psionic classes, for example. I'm hoping that the trait system will encourage people to think more closely about their character's backstory and get them a little bit more involved.
 

Epidiah Ravachol

First Post
rycanada said:
Occasionally they come out of retirement when big things are happening.
I've been sold all throughout this thread, but that there pushed it from "I wonder if I can get folks to play this" to "I will get folks to play this at all costs." To be able to triumphantly return from retirement and be essentially on the same page as all the other heroes . . . Now that feels epic.
 

Azurecobalt

Explorer
First of all, forgive my long post. I don’t know how to make things disappear behind clicky boxes as I’ve never posted at EN World before, but rycanada’s E6 idea drew me out. :p It’s a fantastic idea, and I wanted to add my own contribution for those interested.

Building off of shdwrnr’s idea of prestige feats, I went through the 3.5 DMG prestige classes and converted them into feat chains. I had to avoid the archmage and hierophant due to their power levels. I made a few changes from shdwrnr’s feats and ideas, however. Like those feats, each feat chain begins with a “NameofPrestigeClass Training” feat. For each of these, the prerequisites are character level 6, whatever prerequisites exist in the DMG (where possible, see below) and no other prestige feats from another prestige feat chain.

I was forced to change some prestige class requirements to allow them to work at level six or for greater flexibility. The short overview: Arcane Archer’s BAB was changed to +3 to accommodate the multiclassing requirement (spellcaster and fighting class of some stripe), Arcane Trickster’s spellcasting requirement was changed to casting 2nd level spells to accommodate the necessary multiclassing (rogue levels for sneak attacks), Duelist’s BAB was changed to +4 to accommodate rogue duelists, Dwarven Defender’s BAB requirement was changed to +6 for obvious reasons, Eldrich Knight’s spellcasting requirement was changed to casting 2nd level spells to allow for gishes, Loremaster’s skill requirements were changed to Knowledge (any two) 9 to prevent the necessity of skill feats to qualify on top of the other feat requirements, Shadowdancer’s Hide skill requirement was changed to Hide 9 to avoid the necessity of skill feats on top of the other feat requirements and Thaumaturgist’s “ability to cast lesser planar ally” was changed to the Augment Summoning feat because 4th level spells aren’t available in E6, and the Thaumaturgist will gain lesser plannar ally as an ability with the Thaumaturgist Training feat).

The way feat chain progession works is similar to prestige class advancement. The first feat begins the chain, then the second feat requires the first, the third requires the second, and so on. This allows the characters abilities to grow as if they were taking levels in the class.

For the feat chains themselves, I tried to include prestige class abilities up to 3rd level and occasionally level 4. Hopefully this will keep the power level in the 6-10 quartile as mentioned by rycanada. I occasionally added abilities from further into the prestige class, but usually only when it was a prestige class meant to encourage multiclassing, if it was a weak prestige class (your mileage may vary), or if it seemed to be the “Signature” ability of the prestige class (and losing it would lose the point of taking the feat chain).

Without further ado, here’s the list (as a list of feats instead of pasting the entire document – the feats are essentially giving the benefit of the class ability, so you get the idea):

Arcane Archer Feat Chain
1 Arcane Archer Training (enhance arrow +1)
2 Imbue Arrow
3 Enhance Arrow +2
4 Seeking Arrow
5 Enhance Arrow +3
6 Phase Arrow

Arcane Trickster Feat Chain
1 Arcane Trickster Training (Ranged Legerdemain 1/day)
2 Expanded Casting
3 Sneak Attack +1d6
4 Expanded Casting
5 Sneak Attack +1d6
6 Impromptu Sneak Attack

Assassin Feat Chain
1 Assassin Training (sneak attack +1d6)
2 Poison Use
3 Uncanny Dodge
4 Sneak Attack +1d6
5 Spells (as per shdwrnr’s feat)
6 Death Attack

Blackguard Feat Chain
1 Blackguard Training (fallen from grace, aura of evil, detect good)
2 Smite Good
3 Spells (as per shdwrnr’s feat)
4 Dark Blessing / Aura of Despair (both as one feat)
5 Command Undead
6 Fiendish Servant

Dragon Disciple Feat Chain
1 Dragon Disciple Training (Natural Armor +1)
2 Claws and Bite
3 Natural Armor +1
4 Breath Weapon 2d8
5 Natural Armor +1
6 Breath Weapon 4d8

Duelist Feat Chain
1 Duelist Training (+1 Canny Defense and Improved Reaction +2)
2 Enhanced Mobiity
3 +1 Canny Defense
4 Grace
5 +1 Canny Defense
6 Precise Strike +1d6

Dwarven Defender Feat Chain
1 Dwarven Defender Training (Defensive Stance 1/day)
2 Uncanny Dodge
3 Defensive Stance 2/day
4 Trap Sense +1
5 Defensive Stance 3/day
6 Damage Reduction 2/-

Eldrich Knight Feat Chain
1 Eldrich Knight Training (Fighter Bonus Feat, Expanded Casting)
2 Weapon Specialization
3 Expanded Casting
4 Greater Weapon Focus
5 Expanded Casting
6 Second Attack at +0 BAB

Horizon Walker Feat Chain
1 Horizon Walker Training (Terrain Mastery)
2 Terrain Mastery
3 Terrain Mastery
4 Terrain Mastery
5 Terrain Mastery
6 Planar Terrain Mastery

Loremaster Feat Chain
1 Loremaster Training (Secret)
2 Lore
3 Secret
4 Bonus Language
5 Secret
6 Greater Lore

Mystic Theurge Feat Chain
1 Mystic Theurge Training (Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine)
2 Expanded Casting Arcane / Expanded Casting Divine
3 Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine
4 Expanded Casting Arcane / Expanded Casting Divine
5 Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine
6 Expanded Casting Arcane / Expanded Casting Divine &
Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine (3rd level)

Shadowdancer Feat Chain
1 Shadowdancer Training (Hide in Plain Sight)
2 Evasion
3 Uncanny Dodge
4 Darkvision
5 Summon Shadow
6 Shadow Jump 40 feet

Thaumaturgist Feat Chain
1 Thaumaturgist Training (Expanded Casting [Lesser Planar Ally])
2 Improved Ally
3 Expanded Casting
4 Extend Summoning
5 Expanded Casting
6 Planar Cohort

Some notes / questions / concerns:

1) The various training feats give the class skills listed in the prestige class descriptions as class skills to the character. They also give an additional ability from the prestige class.

2) For classes that gave spellcasting class levels, I instead gave “Expanded Casting” to give additional spell slots. I’m not sure if this is a fair tradeoff (or a choice befitting the flavor of the prestige class). I’m open to other ideas.

For specific prestige classes, some clarification:

The Blackguard’s Fallen From Grace ability gives the abilities listed in the Blackguard Prestige Class for swapping out Paladin levels (since they’re losing paladin abilities, it seems fair).

For the capstone ability of Eldrich Knight, I included a second attack (since to get into the Prestige Class feat chain you’d only have a BAB of +3) at +0. Not sure if this would work, but I wanted to do something to reflect the greater fighting ability of the original prestige class.

For the Mystic Theurge, at each feat in the feat chain I gave two feats: expanded casting for each area (one divine, one arcane) or expanded knowledge for each area (one divine, one arcane). At the capstone feat, I gave all four, but allowing one third level slot for each (divine, arcane) and one spell known for each, but with the caveat that no additional feats could add additional third level slots or third level spells known. I’m not sure if this is too powerful or not, but I’m not sure how else to allow Mystic Theurge to work (otherwise, just multiclass and take the Expanded Casting / Knowledge feats – why bother with a pretige class feat chain?).

For Thaumaturgist, at first level they gain the ability to cast one fourth level spell (lesser plannar cohort), but with the limitation that they can never take feats to add additional fourth level slots or spells known. I’m not sure if their planar cohort will be possible with the restrictions as per the prestige class ability.

I’d love some feedback. Let me know what you think.
 

Ry

Explorer
Hi Azurecobalt, glad E6 has you thinking for your own campaign!

I think a lot of those feats look very powerful - I can't imagine most of them are a tough decision versus other feats - but that's OK. If you want to have a campaign that emphasizes say, 6 key organizations (Arcane Archers, Blackguards, Loremasters, Shadowdancers) these feats would be a great way to do that. There may be some balance issues and you should probably go over them, but you're likely to be ready to DM the game you want in a very short order.
 

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