Eberron, Monks and Shifters

[Digital Archon]

First off, some questions about monks and razorclaw shifters.

Ok, razorclaw shifters do something like 1d4 damage (can't recall off the top of my head, and i know there's a level based or feat based bonus in there as well, but for now, let's assume no such bonus applies right now). Monks also do damage when fighting unarmed, starting at d6 and going up from there (pointing out the obvious, i know). What about monk razorclaw shifters? Do you stack the damage dice i.e. d4+d6?


Has this been addressed in an FAQ somewhere buried on the WotC site?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Razorclaw shifters gain a natural weapon when they shift (and so do Longtooth shifters, for that matter).

A natural weapon is not the same thing as an unarmed strike, and they have separate rules which govern them.

I'll see if I can't find the thread where I gave a more detailed answer, and copy that answer here.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

OK, here we go:

Let's assume that you're a level 1 Shifter Monk with the Razorclaw trait. Moreover, I'm guessing that the RC trait grants you two claw attacks at 1d4 each. You have the following options (where the +Y is your BAB, and +X is your Strength bonus to damage):

• Single Attack (Standard Action)
  1. Monk Attack: Unarmed Strike +0, 1d6+X
  2. Natural Attack 1: Claw +0, 1d4+X
• Full Attack (Full-Round Action)
  1. Monk Attack: Unarmed Strike +0, 1d6+X
  2. Natural Attack: 2 Claws +0, 1d4+X
  3. Monk Attack & Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike +0, 1d6+X; 2 Claws -5, 1d4+.5X
  4. Flurry of Blows: Unarmed Strike -2 / -2, 1d6+X

Now, the rationale:

1. Unarmed strikes do not need to be made with the hands; they may be made with feet, headbuts, knees-to-the-groin, boots-to-the-head, etc. Accordingly, using unarmed strike does not impede use of claws.

2. Similarly, unarmed strikes and claws are completely different weapons. One is, for purposes of this discussion, a manufactured weapon. The other is a natural weapon, and therefore follows its own rules.

3. When using natural weapons and manufactured weapons together, the manufactured weapons are primary, and the natural weapons are treated as secondary. Normally, this means that they take a -5 penalty on to-hit rolls and only apply .5 of your Strength modifier to damage. However, because of the feats you specified, secondary natural attacks are made at no penalty, though the .5 Strength mod still applies.

4. This one's important! Whenever you use Flurry of Blows, you are limited to using unarmed strikes and monk-specific weapons. A natural attack form is not a monk-specific weapon, nor is it an unarmed strike. Accordingly, you may not use them at the same time you are using Flurry of Blows. Some people believe that this means you may use them after a Flurry of Blows, but in the same sequence of attacks. I believe that view to be complete pish. Check with your DM, however.

 

[Obscure]

There is no FAQ for Eberron, and I'm almost certain there are no Eberron issues dealt with in the General FAQ. The FAQ does note that a vampire monk does not drain levels while using unarmed strike because that is not the same as the vampire's slam attack.

Likewise, natural weapon attacks and unarmed attacks are two seperate actions -- you can't do both of them simultaneously. As such, you wouldn't be dealing both claw damage and unarmed strike damage together. You could make an unarmed attack with one hand and a claw attack with the offhand (at a -5 penalty, or -2 with the right feat), but not both attacks at the same time with one hand.

Think of unarmed strike as the shifter using closed fists, the side of his hand, and even kicks, knees, and headbutts. His claws don't come into play.

 

[Digital Archon]

Ah. Didn't realize that unarmed strikes were a different weapon category and not considered natural weapons.

Thanks.

 

[ARandomGod]

4. This one's important! Whenever you use Flurry of Blows, you are limited to using unarmed strikes and monk-specific weapons. A natural attack form is not a monk-specific weapon, nor is it an unarmed strike. Accordingly, you may not use them at the same time you are using Flurry of Blows. Some people believe that this means you may use them after a Flurry of Blows, but in the same sequence of attacks. I believe that view to be complete pish. Check with your DM, however.

Yup.

I'd also allow the flurry + natural attack. With the concept that flurry is similiar to two fighting and rapid shot... (it even stacks with two weapon fighting). Of course, during your flurry you're allowed to only use monk weapons or unarmed attacks, not the natural attacks... so the natural attacks would come after the flurry attacks.

But that's the same way they do it with other martial attacks. The natural attacks come after the other attacks, if you're combining them.

BUT, other than that point I agree. Natural attacks are completely separete from unarmed strikes or martial weapon (BAB based) attacks. You specifically can use natural attacks after BAB based attacks (which would include unarmed strikes), at -5 to hit and 0.5x strength bonus. If it were two weapon fighting there would be no issue (other than the fact that if you're using two weapons you're using your claws, and so couldn't claw attack). But if you somehow could attack with your feet ... (or more realistically if you had armor spikes and/or the unarmed strke feat)

 

[Diirk]

I'd also allow the flurry + natural attack. With the concept that flurry is similiar to two fighting and rapid shot... (it even stacks with two weapon fighting). Of course, during your flurry you're allowed to only use monk weapons or unarmed attacks, not the natural attacks... so the natural attacks would come after the flurry attacks.

I'd also agree that that argument is hogwash. Take your (semi-standard) flurrying, TWFing monk using 2 kukris, or some other monk weapon. Ok, no problem there, he gets x mainhand attacks and/or unarmed strikes, he gets x offhand attacks with his offhand kukri, and he gets 1-2 flurry attacks with his mainhand kukri and/or unarmed strikes.

Now take the same monk with a shortsword in his offhand. Is it then fair to say that he gets all his normal attacks, all his flurry attacks, and then say that he attacks with the shortsword in his offhand 'after' the flurry, so its ok to do that too?

If so, what the hell is the point of saying monks can't use non-monk weapons in a flurry if, in fact, they can ?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Now take the same monk with a shortsword in his offhand. Is it then fair to say that he gets all his normal attacks, all his flurry attacks, and then say that he attacks with the shortsword in his offhand 'after' the flurry, so its ok to do that too?

No, it's not. "Flurrying" applies to your entire Full Attack action. Ergo, you can't use non-monk weapons, even as an off-hand attack, at all during that action. After your action is over, sure, go nuts, but not in the same sequence.

That's my side, anyway. Thanks for agreeing with me!

 

[glass]

Ah. Didn't realize that unarmed strikes were a different weapon category and not considered natural weapons.

It should be noted that a monks unarmed strikes are considered natural weapons for some purposes (such as magic fang spells). Doesn't make natural attacks unarmed strikes though.


glass.

 

[Drowbane]

isn't there an example of a Centaur Monk somewhere than does a Full attack, using a flurry with his hoof-strikes at the end?