(Eberron) Please help - Is the Battlefist considered a natural weapon?

[reveal]

I'm confused. In the book, it says that the Battlefist is a "+1 weapon" which "increases the damage dealt by a character's natural slam attack."

So.... Is it a weapon or is it a natural attack? It's important for a few reasons.

1) Can Align Weapon, which cannot be cast on natural weapons, affect a Battlefist?

2) Can a warforged PC get more than one attack per round because of their BAB even though you can only make one attack per round with a single natural weapon, according to the Monster Manual?

3) Can Improved Natural Attack be taken by the warforged to turn the 1d8 damage normally provided by the Battlefist into 2d6?

4) Can Greater Magic Fang be cast on the warforged in question and have it apply to the attack/damage of the Battlefist?

 

[Octal40]

If its only effect is to modify a natural attack, I'd count it as a natural weapon.

It may not totally make sense, but just remember that Warforged tend to "break" a lot of rules.

 

[ken-ichi]

1) Yes, a battlefist states that it is a weapon. I treat it as a weapon that you can attack with as if it were a natural weapon. Unique rules for a unique item.
2) Only if said character is a monk. Non-monks can only use the battlefist by attacking with their natural slam attack which is limited to one attack a round (two if you have the Second Slam feat). Monk characters can use the battlefist by making unarmed strikes.
3) I think the effect you would get is the Improved Natural Weapon would boost the damage of the slam one step from 1d4 to 1d6. Then by wearing the battle fist you get to use the battlefist's damage of 1d8 or your slam's (improved) natural damage of 1d6. I don't think that Improved Natural attack can boost the battlefist's damage at all. This one I am not real sure on though, but I think the battlefist is plenty good for its cheap price as it is especially for a monk.
4) I would probably have to say no on this one. You are using a weapon that has special and unique rules for it, mainly being able to attack with it as a natural weapon, but you are still attacking with a weapon and the weapon is not a valid target for magic fang. However you can target it with a greater magic weapon spell.

 

[Klaus]

It is an oversized spiked gauntlet that deals slashing and bludgeoning damage. Treat it just like you would treat a regular spiked gauntlet worn by a human.

So even though it "enhances" the slam attack, I'd say its a weapon.

A warforged wielding a battlefist and yelling "BOOM!" every time it hits a foe is just too cool, in a Hellboy kinda way.

 

[Octal40]

ken-ichi, regarding #2, why the monk restriction? Any character can make an unarmed attack. Any character can take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat so as to do lethal damage. With a +6 BAB, they could attack twice a round.

 

[ARandomGod]

The Battlefist is a special item. It specifically 'breaks' certain rules... or rather, it doesn't break the rules so much as it has multiple effects.

OK... it's a +1 weapon. It says that so it indeed IS a weapon, and therefore you can use it as a weapon doing the damage it states, and it gets multiple attacks from a higher BAB.

But that's not ALL it does. It also enhances the warforged natural attacks. When it's doing this instead of being a weapon, the attack is a natural attack (and no additional attacks due to BAB). Note that the warforged's natrual attacks are 'slam' attacks, and a slam attack could just as easily come from his shoulders as his fist. So this is a relatively powerful enchantment (And all for only 2K! A very good deal).

But that's not all! You can indeed align a battlefist, as it's a weapon. It also improves the natural attacks... true. Now, will this 'align weapon' also align their natural attacks? I'm tempted to say yes, but it could easily be no too, depending on interpretation. I'd also say greater magic fang would work. But once again, it might not work on both. And, obviously, as an enhancement bonus it wouldn't 'stack' with the enhancement bonus already on the battlefist.

A monk gets the additional special effect of allowing the battlefist as a monk weapon, and also getting his monk damage die increased by one catagory.

Improved natural attack won't stack with the magical effect of the battlefist either. Improved natural attack makes the attack as if it were made by a creature one size catagory larger. The battlefist makes the attack as if it were made by a creature one size catagory larger. Therefore if you have both, you make the attack as if you were ONE size catagory larger (not two).

 

[ARandomGod]

1...their natural slam attack which is limited to one attack a round (two if you have the Second Slam feat).

Wait... there's a second slam feat? Where is this feat? Can you post details?

 

[Klaus]

It's from Races of Eberron, and it's very poorly written. It grants you a second slam, but at -5 to hit, which is contrary to the way natural attacks work.

House Rule time: Second Slam grants the warforged two slams (at full BAB). If he attacks with both slams, the warforged only adds 1x his Str modifier (as opposed to 1.5x if he attacks with a single slam).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It's from Races of Eberron, and it's very poorly written. It grants you a second slam, but at -5 to hit, which is contrary to the way natural attacks work.

Not really.

Natural attacks, normally, do not benefit from multiple attacks gained via increased BAB.

They do, however, benefit from multiple attacks gained by things like Haste.

A feat which gives you a second attack with a particular natural weapon - at a -5 penalty - is exactly the way to get additional attacks with a particular natural weapon. Feats are meant to ... overwrite, for lack of a better term ... the general rules.

There's a similar feat in the Draconomicon, which applies to creatures with paired claw attacks - and, again, it's the only way for such creatures to gain psuedo-iterative attacks with a natural weapon.

 

[ARandomGod]

A feat which gives you a second attack with a particular natural weapon - at a -5 penalty - is exactly the way to get additional attacks with a particular natural weapon. Feats are meant to ... overwrite, for lack of a better term ... the general rules.

True, a secondary attack with a natural weapon would have it at -5 (and x.5 strength to damage). Two primaries would be at full BAB and only x1.0 strength to damage...

Did it make it a secondary attack? Does it get x1.0 strength, x1.5 strength, or x0.5 strength?

And, is it just AT a -5 to attack, or "as a secondary natural weapon attack". Or to say, would it be affected by the multiattack feat (assuming you had one more natural attack and therefore could meet the prerequisite, which is 3 or more natural attacks....)

If it just said "a second slam attack at -5" then I'll agree that it's poorly worded in not considering those other details.