Echoes of Thunder, Exponential damage

[borg286]

Echoes of Thunder
Benefit: When you hit with any thunder attack
power, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls until the
end of your next turn. The bonus increases to +2 at
11th level and +3 at 21st level.

Let's say you have an AoE thunder spell that targets 10 foes. Next turn they are all still alive and didn't move and you can do the same attack again.
Let's further assume you hit on all guys for simplicity sake.

You hit on the first guy thus triggering echoes. You roll damage getting a +1 bonus to the damage roll.
You roll and hit the next foe. You roll damage getting a +2 bonus to the damage roll.
You roll and hit the next foe. You roll damage getting a +3 bonus to the damage roll.
....
You roll and hit the next foe. You roll damage getting a +10 bonus to the damage roll.
Next turn

You hit on the first guy thus triggering echoes. You roll damage getting a +11 bonus to the damage roll.
You roll and hit the next foe. You roll damage getting a +12 bonus to the damage roll.
You roll and hit the next foe. You roll damage getting a +13 bonus to the damage roll.
....
You roll and hit the next foe. You roll damage getting a +20 bonus to the damage roll.
The total damage this feat contributed was 1+2+3...+20 = sum(i,i,1,20) = 210
algebraically sum(i,i,1,2n) = n(2n+1) = 2n^2+n
If we plot the growth with the number of hits we find that the damage contribution is quadratic (I know quadratic is less than exponential but I had to get some attention somehow).

I know that a variant ruling on AoE powers says to make 1 roll and apply it to all the monsters, but if the DM goes with the 1 roll / monster how would this abuse be met? Are there some rules that prevent such abuse? Is there any way to get this kind of growth with attack bonuses(untyped until end of your next turn)?

 

[Chimerasame]

Echoes of Thunder
Benefit: When you hit with any thunder attack
power, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls until the
end of your next turn. The bonus increases to +2 at
11th level and +3 at 21st level.

My reading of this is that what triggers it is when you hit with the power, not with a single attack that is part of that power. If you hit your first target with this thunder AOE, then you have hit with that power. If you hit the second target, that fact doesn't change. Is there any clarification in rules or errata that would contradict me here? I'll admit I'm not certain.

Even if you don't take this reading, I would argue that all of the hits are simultaneous, and so you would get no damage bonus on the first turn, and a +10 damage bonus for all attacks on the second turn.

 

[borg286]

My reading of this is that what triggers it is when you hit with the power, not with a single attack that is part of that power. If you hit your first target with this thunder AOE, then you have hit with that power. If you hit the second target, that fact doesn't change. Is there any clarification in rules or errata that would contradict me here? I'll admit I'm not certain.

Even if you don't take this reading, I would argue that all of the hits are simultaneous, and so you would get no damage bonus on the first turn, and a +10 damage bonus for all attacks on the second turn.

I agree that this reading would make it a linear progression, as 2n < 2n^2+n for n>1. Having a linear growth would be in line with what WotC is trying for.

Yet still I can see room for the initial interpretation.

 

[Stalker0]

I thought bonuses from the same source don't stack?

 

[Paul Strack]

I thought bonuses from the same source don't stack?

I would dearly love to see a rules quote supporting that, because it would solve a lot of problems. Unfortunately, the only rules I've found contradict it:

PHB 192: "Bonuses of the same type don’t add together ... Unlike feat bonuses, however, untyped bonuses stack with themselves."

PHB 275: "Don’t add together bonuses of the same type to the same roll or score. If you have two bonuses of the same type that apply to the same roll or score, use the higher bonus ... Some bonuses are untyped (“a +2 bonus”). Most of these are situational and add together with other bonus you have, including other untyped bonuses."

The restriction on addition is from bonuses of the same type, not the same source. And the rules indicate that untyped bonuses stack with themselves.

If someone can find a quote indicating otherwise, please let me know.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I know that a variant ruling on AoE powers says to make 1 roll and apply it to all the monsters, but if the DM goes with the 1 roll / monster how would this abuse be met?

Look at p. 271 of the PHB. One damage roll for an area/close attack is RAW; one roll per monster would be a house rule. That's not to say that this isn't abusable, just not as abusable as you'd initially stated if RAW is followed.

I would solve this by modifying the feat to say that the damage bonus doesn't stack with itself.

 

[1darklord]

Don't you roll the single damage roll after all of the hit rolls have been made though? So after 10 rolls for the Thunder power all of which hit, they all take an extra 10 damage?

Daniel.

 

[sigfile]

I asked CS about this very thing.

[FONT=&quot]

If a character uses an area-effect spell like Thunderwave, does the character earn a cumulative +1 (at heroic) damage for each target hit by the spell, or just a blanket +1 for hitting any targets with a single cast of the spell?

[/FONT]CS Evan's response was:

[FONT=&quot]Hello. This effect is not cumulative, so you only get the +1 even if you hit several enemies with this spell.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

So it's just a good feat, not an absurdly good feat.
[/FONT]

 

[abyssaldeath]

I would dearly love to see a rules quote supporting that, because it would solve a lot of problems. Unfortunately, the only rules I've found contradict it:

PHB 192: "Bonuses of the same type don’t add together ... Unlike feat bonuses, however, untyped bonuses stack with themselves."

PHB 275: "Don’t add together bonuses of the same type to the same roll or score. If you have two bonuses of the same type that apply to the same roll or score, use the higher bonus ... Some bonuses are untyped (“a +2 bonus”). Most of these are situational and add together with other bonus you have, including other untyped bonuses."

The restriction on addition is from bonuses of the same type, not the same source. And the rules indicate that untyped bonuses stack with themselves.

If someone can find a quote indicating otherwise, please let me know.

There isn't any such rule. I keep seeing people making that statement like it is an actual part of the rules, but they never quote any of the books to back it up. The closest rule is that penalties from the same power don't stack. I'm not sure where the whole same source thing came from, but it gets repeated enough times that it is starting to look like an actual rule. I know that I've seen it come up enough times that I'm starting to second guess myself and I have to look it up just to make sure that it is not a rule.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm not sure where the whole same source thing came from, but it gets repeated enough times that it is starting to look like an actual rule. I know that I've seen it come up enough times that I'm starting to second guess myself and I have to look it up just to make sure that it is not a rule.

Its possible its a legacy of 3e that people (like myself) assume are in the rules somewhere. I believe there is a rule, but it could simply be remnants of the older system.