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ECL/LA just not working out for me

fnork de sporg

First Post
It seems like I either end up with a character that is noticably more capable than the characters around them, or I end up with someone that is so underpowered, lacking skills hit points and bab, that they cannot effectively function in a party of their level.

Is it something I am doing wrong? Is there something THEY are doing wrong? How do you deal with this?
 

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Thanee

First Post
Well, we don't really use races with level adjustment normally, except the odd aasimar or something like that.

In our current party, however, there is a centaur fighter and that seems to work out pretty good (neither too weak nor too strong).

Bye
Thanee
 

mikebr99

Explorer
fnork de sporg said:
It seems like I either end up with a character that is noticably more capable than the characters around them, or I end up with someone that is so underpowered, lacking skills hit points and bab, that they cannot effectively function in a party of their level.

Is it something I am doing wrong? Is there something THEY are doing wrong? How do you deal with this?
Maybe if you posted some examples?

Mike
 


Thanee

First Post
The problem is, stuff with a high LA isn't really more powerful. The LA isn't there to represent that, hit dice already cover it more or less.

The LA just figures in how many special or weird abilities the creature possesses. Those might be extremely potent in some situations, but in most they won't really help much.

Bye
Thanee
 

James McMurray

First Post
mikebr99 said:
Maybe if you posted some examples?

Mike

I agree. Some examples could prove enlightening. Many creatures are over or under powered for their LA. The effects also depend on what level you start at. Starting at 4th level with a +3 LA race will ruin your day, but starting at 15th level with that same race could very well make you more powerful than everyone else.
 

Scion

First Post
It may not help you a lot, but anytime I have a player who wants to use something nonstandard I look at what it is, what it does, and how it does it. Then I look at what the player has in mind for down the road.

At that point I simply remake everything from the ground up. Overall this effectively solves the whole problem. The player gets to play something of Race/Special thing X and I still get to keep the balance. Sure, they arent playing something exactly out of the monstrous manual, and are different in a few subtle ways from the rest of their race, but who cares? they are pc's, generally differnet from the rest of the creed in some way anyway, and it simply makes things easier ;)
 

Gizzard

First Post
The LA just figures in how many special or weird abilities the creature possesses. Those might be extremely potent in some situations, but in most they won't really help much.

I think this is the key. For instance, DR 10/magic is generally awesome at low levels and generally poop at high levels. So what is this ability worth in terms of LA? Well, it depends on if you are playing a 2nd level or a 22nd level character.

I don't think these abilities can be balanced 100% into a tidy +LA number; especially the ones that drop off rapidly in utility such as DR X/magic.

How about a ECL 6 mephit.

Aren't Mephits CR3 and LA+3? +6 would be a lot for a mephit. For +3 they have a lot of useful abilities like Fly though, so you can't go much lower.
 

Tyrol

First Post
Edit: Removed inappropriate quote. Sorry bout that.

It's nearly impossible to balance many monster PCs throughout their entire progression as a character. It is a case of 'rate of growth.' ECL characters usually start weaker, but have a "faster" rate of growth due to often powerful racial features which cannot be duplicated by any level of PC.

This is kind of hard to explain and will likely become a gross oversimplification (due to the sheer number of variables involved in true balance of a game this complex), but if you think of character progression in terms of two lines plotted on a graph, x-axis being Character Level/ECL, and y-axis representing 'Character Power,' you might imagine that the slope of the lines would illustrate their 'power progression'. It would vary slightly by class, but we'll assume typical PCs progress at an even rate (read: slope 1) from the origin (we'll use the coordinate level 1, power 1 as the origin) all the way out to (level 20, power 20). Moving horizontally (to the right) along the x-axis from (1,1), PCs with an LA and racial HD don't enter the graph until slightly before their respective ECL. For this example, let's use an ECL 4 character, which we'll estimate to start around coordinates (ECL 4, power 1.5), as it is well established that a character with 1 class level and several LA is typically far inferior at that first level. At that point (ECL 4), standard PCs are well above a monster PC in terms of relative power. In order to catch up, the monster race's slope (read: power progression) will (or at least should) always be greater than that of a Standard PC's. Just how much greater will vary depending on the specific monster (and his ECL; the greater the LA, the greater the slope). A heigtened slope can be explained by powerful racial features that are not available to (and cannot be duplicated by) standard PCs, as monster features become oh so much more effective in conjunction with the HP, saves and abilities that class levels bring.

Properly balanced, I would GUESS that most LA/ECL characters might intersect the 'Standard PC level vs power' line at (or more than) halfway from whatever their starting ECL was to ECL 20. ((20 - starting ECL)/2) <= Standard PC.

Balancing is a tricky issue, and there are likely all manner of monsters (with misassigned LA/HD) that defy any rules that emulate the general pattern.

Regardless, do not be surprised if a Level Adjusted PC who seemed underpowered at first, grows to catch and often surpass the normal PC in power. Similarly, characters who seem initially balanced with regular PCs may pull away from the group. Of course, this all depends on the features of the race and how well they work in combination with the monster's class levels.

Well, maybe i made some sense to someone with all that rambling. :heh: Or maybe I'm just as confused as the next guy. :confused:
 
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fnork de sporg

First Post
Gizzard said:
Aren't Mephits CR3 and LA+3? +6 would be a lot for a mephit. For +3 they have a lot of useful abilities like Fly though, so you can't go much lower.
Yes, but the Monster Manual says to add the LA to the creature's hit dice, so by their rules a Mephit would be ECL 6, which is insane.
 
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