Eclipse Shade [PrC] (Essentially Faerun Shade Template as PrC)

[Quirken]

Yesterday, my DM and a few friends played through a test fight with our ECL11 monster characters. I had a +4 level adjustment from the Shade template (from creatures of Faerun), and I immediately felt underpowered compared to my Kobold Half-Dragon cohort, who had a flame attack which pretty much 1 hit me.

As a result, I've drafted up a prestige class based on the Shade template, but with no level adjustment. I've added a few extra perks since it spans 6 levels instead of 4, and want to know whether this seems reasonably well balanced. Hell, if you think the same thing in 5 levels would be fair, I'd like that too!

In order to present this in a readable fashion, the class is in .PDF format, available here: The Eclipse Shade Prestige Class

I have two purposes for posting this here:

1) I want to share this new Prestige class.
2) I'd like feedback. I want this to be "balanced" such that my DM is likely to accept it. Please be as brutal as necessary. If something feels OP, tell me. If something seems like I could make it stronger and it would be fair, please tell me!

Changes to template / Sources

• I removed the spell resistance bonus
• I added +2 to a few skills, and overall +2 to attack
• I added an ability called "Shade's Step" (idea borrowed from SoPM).
• Added Shadow Pounce.
• I borrowed a few ideas from here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowdancer,_Tome_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29 , namely I renamed the Shadow Stride to Slide, because that sounded cooler, and added a slightly weaker Shadow Strike. Instead of rolling a 1d6 and multiplying it by half your character level, you roll a # of dice equal to your sneak attack damage.

 

[Kerrick]

Just a few quick comments (because I'm working on something else while I do this):

Why not just revise the template? If all you're after is a lower LA, make a new template with lesser powers and call it Shadow-touched (just a variant of the plane-touched template). You could also make a full-blown PrC (there are lots of shadow-based PrCs, depending on what you're looking for) that embodies the abilities you're looking for without it being a monster class. Personally, I think monster classes are dumb, but that's just my opinion. From what I'm seeing, you're playing a rogue; here are a couple PrCs of my own that might be useful: revised Shadowdancer Walker in Shadows.

Anyway. This class might be a little powerful for 5th level, especially with the +2 Dex/Cha. Yes, I know the Dragon Disciple gives a lot more for the same level req, but that class is all kinds of broken.

Speed of shadow is an odd ability. It doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO.

Shadow strike... I dunno. It's not too much damage, but it's a ranged touch sneak attack usable every other round. Tough to say whether or not this is overpowered. Given that it's cold damage, probably not; force damage, though, probably is (and it doesn't fit with the theme of Shadow; I'd change it to negative energy, personally).

Shadow slide: Cool ability, but it needs a better name. And, uh, "move-equivalent action" is 3.0, not 3.5 (unless you are using 3.0, then just ignore that ).

Shade's step: Another cool ability, but limited use (obviously, it's intended for a rogue to be able to hide and flank someone). Moving 30 feet as an immediate action is a bit overpowered, especially when you automatically hide. Since you've already got shadow slide, this one is almost superfluous - I'd give that ability this one's name, leave it as a standard action, and require a Hide check if you want to hide in said shadow.

Shadow pounce: Nasty. I like it.

All of the abilities, except for shadow image and shadow travel, should be Su, not Sp.

 

[Quirken]

Why not just revise the template? If all you're after is a lower LA, make a new template with lesser powers and call it Shadow-touched

I'm primarily after a lower LA, but if I can get stats and keep all the abilities, I'd prefer that.

there are lots of shadow-based PrCs

I know of Telflammar Shadow Lord and Shadowdancer. Both are kind of cool but individually I don't like them. The big limitation is they just can't do their signature move very frequently. There might be more that grant similar abilities I don't know about.

here are a couple PrCs of my own that might be useful: revised Shadowdancer Walker in Shadows.

That revised SD is much better, since you can use it enough for it to be useful now. That said, it's really a certain flavor I'm looking for.

This class might be a little powerful for 5th level, especially with the +2 Dex/Cha.

Any suggestions as far as what the minimum level ought to be? Perhaps I could shift those abilities over one level?

Races of Faerun say they don't make Shades of less than 5th level, hence the choice. If you imagine gaining the template at 5th level, you'd be ECL9, which would effectively be the equivalent of finishing this prestige class at ECL 11 - two higher than the template.

Speed of shadow is an odd ability. It doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO.

It was either that, get rid of the speed boost, or give it all at once. The template grants +20 to movement, or +15 in medium/heavy armor.

It's not too much damage, but it's a ranged touch sneak attack usable every other round. Tough to say whether or not this is overpowered. Given that it's cold damage, probably not; force damage, though, probably is (and it doesn't fit with the theme of Shadow; I'd change it to negative energy, personally).

Hm. Good flavor choice. As far as balance, I was imagining using it only when you were unable to hit with a sneak attack. That said, you have a pretty good point. Why bother trying to sneak attack if you could do nearly the same damage as a touch attack?

What about changing the number of dice rolls to be your sneak attack dice minus ____ dice?

Another possibility would be saying you can announce before your attack that you will sacrifice any number of your sneak attack dice, and gain those dice as a bonus to your attack roll, and deal the remaining sneak attack damage regardless of whether they are flat footed? So when you are having trouble hitting something, you can sacrifice 1d6 to get a 1d6 bonus to your attack, and THEN if it hits, you get the remaining sneak attack damage.

Shadow slide: Cool ability, but it needs a better name. And, uh, "move-equivalent action" is 3.0, not 3.5 (unless you are using 3.0, then just ignore that ).

Faerun is originally a 3.0 world, and they brought most of it up to 3.5. This is probably an artifact of that. Just get rid of the "equivalent" part, right?

Shade's step: Another cool ability, but limited use (obviously, it's intended for a rogue to be able to hide and flank someone). Moving 30 feet as an immediate action is a bit overpowered, especially when you automatically hide. Since you've already got shadow slide, this one is almost superfluous - I'd give that ability this one's name, leave it as a standard action, and require a Hide check if you want to hide in said shadow.

Interesting. That would be simultaneously more useful and less overpowered. Your first turn you could then hide in the same fashion, giving an enemy a chance to hit you first. And outside of combat, you can now hide in any shadow within 300 feet.

Shadow pounce: Nasty. I like it.

Hehe, yeah. Shadow Lords get it, and it's pretty slick.

All of the abilities, except for shadow image and shadow travel, should be Su, not Sp.

I would think so too, especially because Shades are now creatures of shadow. But the shade template says Su. Is this perhaps another 3.0 artifact? (i.e. there was no distinction between spell-like and supernatural?)

I'm kind of a newbie, so in terms of game mechanics, is there a significant difference between the two except abilities that target only one type? In which case, which one is more rare? Do anti-magic fields suppress supernatural abilities, etc?

Thanks for the feedback! It was all well thought out stuff, and I'll work it into the class when I have time.

If at that point you have more ideas, I'd love to hear them!

 

[Quirken]

New version, same link. Summary of changes below

1. Followed your advice and made all abilities (Su) instead of (Sp)
2. Stat boosts now occur the last four levels of the class, rather than the middle 4
3. Shadow Strike (Su):
   Shadows engulf your weapon of choice (melee or ranged), guiding it with deadly force towards your foe. Before you make an attack roll, announce you are making a Shadow Strike. Pick a number of dice less than your sneak attack dice. When you roll your attack, add this many d6 to your attack roll. If you hit, you automatically succeed at a sneak attack, and deal your remaining sneak attack dice as cold damage (in addition to normal weapon damage). You may only make one such strike every other round.
   
   At 5th level, a shade’s shadow strike can, at your option, deal negative energy damage instead of cold damage, as the target creature's own shadow turns to attack him. For this attack, your sneak attack damage increases one die size (from d6 to d8).
4. Renamed Shadow Slide back to Shadow Stride. After 3rd level, after sliding as a move action, you may attempt to hide as a standard action

 

[Kerrick]

I'm primarily after a lower LA, but if I can get stats and keep all the abilities, I'd prefer that.

Okay, I'll see what I can do.

That revised SD is much better, since you can use it enough for it to be useful now. That said, it's really a certain flavor I'm looking for.

What are you looking for? That might help narrow down the focus for this class.

Any suggestions as far as what the minimum level ought to be? Perhaps I could shift those abilities over one level?

One thing I forgot to mention: shadow travel. You should be able to use any PrC ability at the level you get it, not "if you have x levels". Plane shift is a L5 spell, and TP w/o error is L7 (split the difference at L6), but it's only usable 1/day, so you can grant it without a level prereq.

Races of Faerun say they don't make Shades of less than 5th level, hence the choice. If you imagine gaining the template at 5th level, you'd be ECL9, which would effectively be the equivalent of finishing this prestige class at ECL 11 - two higher than the template.

Ah, okay.

It was either that, get rid of the speed boost, or give it all at once. The template grants +20 to movement, or +15 in medium/heavy armor.

Hmm. Still kind of odd, but okay.

Hm. Good flavor choice. As far as balance, I was imagining using it only when you were unable to hit with a sneak attack. That said, you have a pretty good point. Why bother trying to sneak attack if you could do nearly the same damage as a touch attack?

Exactly.

What about changing the number of dice rolls to be your sneak attack dice minus ____ dice?

Another possibility would be saying you can announce before your attack that you will sacrifice any number of your sneak attack dice, and gain those dice as a bonus to your attack roll, and deal the remaining sneak attack damage regardless of whether they are flat footed? So when you are having trouble hitting something, you can sacrifice 1d6 to get a 1d6 bonus to your attack, and THEN if it hits, you get the remaining sneak attack damage.

This would be a cool rogue ability. For the PrC, though, I'd just make them deal a set amount of damage - say, 1d6/2 class levels. That makes it useful but not overpowered.

The version you've got now makes sneak attacks automatic, which is very broken - they should only occur if the target is flanked or flat-footed; also, the wording implies that it bypasses immunity to sneak attacks.

Faerun is originally a 3.0 world, and they brought most of it up to 3.5. This is probably an artifact of that. Just get rid of the "equivalent" part, right?

Yeah.

Interesting. That would be simultaneously more useful and less overpowered. Your first turn you could then hide in the same fashion, giving an enemy a chance to hit you first. And outside of combat, you can now hide in any shadow within 300 feet.

I would think so too, especially because Shades are now creatures of shadow. But the shade template says Su. Is this perhaps another 3.0 artifact? (i.e. there was no distinction between spell-like and supernatural?)

No, the distinction is the same between 3.0 and 3.5. Sp abilities duplicate spells; Su abilities are anything that's not normal and not a spell.

I'm kind of a newbie, so in terms of game mechanics, is there a significant difference between the two except abilities that target only one type? In which case, which one is more rare? Do anti-magic fields suppress supernatural abilities, etc?

Spell-like abilities are generally rarer; anything that suppresses an Sp ability also works on Su abilities, but Su abilities can't be dispelled.

If at that point you have more ideas, I'd love to hear them!

I started to rewrite this thing, but I need more time than I have right now. I'm thinking that it needs to be expanded out to 10 levels. I doubt I could do a template that's less than LA +4, but I could give it a shot instead. Either way, let me know - I have more time after I get home from work tonight.

 

[Quirken]

What are you looking for? That might help narrow down the focus for this class.

Mostly, just a "badass" attack and disappear class. Most importantly, something "interesting." I get bored quickly with vanilla-feeling classes. I like customizability or tactical abilities, where you can come up with a clever way to use an ability.

Example: There's a "Mole" PrC that gets a burrow speed in Dragon #310. You gain a burrow speed. My character has a climb speed, so I can climb up a wall, burrow into the ceiling, and then drop down on an enemy. Kind of fun, no?

I started to rewrite this thing, but I need more time than I have right now. I'm thinking that it needs to be expanded out to 10 levels. I doubt I could do a template that's less than LA +4, but I could give it a shot instead. Either way, let me know - I have more time after I get home from work tonight.

Don't worry about it. My DM changed his mind and decided that he didn't want to allow the Shade template to be modified or to make it a PrC because "a rogue is not a combat character" and to modify the Shade would mean I wasn't a shade anymore. That said, he's reasonably accepting of homebrew stuff in general, as long as it is somewhat balanced.

At this point, I'm more looking for interesting prestige classes or base classes instead of rogue.

Thank you for all your feedback!

 

[Kerrick]

Mostly, just a "badass" attack and disappear class. Most importantly, something "interesting." I get bored quickly with vanilla-feeling classes. I like customizability or tactical abilities, where you can come up with a clever way to use an ability.

Example: There's a "Mole" PrC that gets a burrow speed in Dragon #310. You gain a burrow speed. My character has a climb speed, so I can climb up a wall, burrow into the ceiling, and then drop down on an enemy. Kind of fun, no?

Yeah, that's kind of cool.

Don't worry about it. My DM changed his mind and decided that he didn't want to allow the Shade template to be modified or to make it a PrC because "a rogue is not a combat character" and to modify the Shade would mean I wasn't a shade anymore. That said, he's reasonably accepting of homebrew stuff in general, as long as it is somewhat balanced.

He's right, in a way - rogues aren't intended to be stand-up combat characters. They're more guerilla fighters, like what you wanted - hit and run types.

At this point, I'm more looking for interesting prestige classes or base classes instead of rogue.

Well... I could keep going with that idea I had (which was to expand on the movement abilities). I've got two roguish shadow-type PrCs also: the Shadowdancer (which you've already seen) and the Walker In Shadows, which is a shadow-based rogue/assassin. There are lots of other PrCs on the site (just look on the Classes page) geared toward rogues also.

Thank you for all your feedback!

Anytime. I love designing PrCs - they're easily my favorite part of the game.

 

[Quirken]

He's right, in a way - rogues aren't intended to be stand-up combat characters. They're more guerilla fighters, like what you wanted - hit and run types.

The difference is I expected my AC and damage to be high enough that I'd be a force to be reckoned with in combat, when in reality, I could probably be put down with a single critical hit, depending on what we're fighting.

Well... I could keep going with that idea I had (which was to expand on the movement abilities). I've got two roguish shadow-type PrCs also: the Shadowdancer (which you've already seen) and the Walker In Shadows, which is a shadow-based rogue/assassin. There are lots of other PrCs on the site (just look on the Classes page) geared toward rogues also.

Those are cool but feel very similar to the shade abilities. Much as I hate the level adjustment, I do like the Shade, and I like the Shadowvar lore that goes with it...

Anytime. I love designing PrCs - they're easily my favorite part of the game.

Mine too. So much flavor variety!