Edition wars...a GOOD thing? or if not, an APPROPRIATE thing?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You may not be willing to post yet another list of 3E flaws on a Pathfinder/3E forum, yet you have done just that on the ENWorld General Discussion forum. So, I'm not sure you've made your point.

I made that list to illustrate what kind of "weapons" I would have in this war. Unfortunately, by doing so I used them which I don't actually want because it just fuels the whole damn thing.

Just remember how glad you can be that people don't bring this up constantly and force you to rehash this things. Or that you don't feel forced to rehash these things with such posters.

 

[DanFor]

Just remember how glad you can be that people don't bring this up constantly and force you to rehash this things. Or that you don't feel forced to rehash these things with such posters.

That' sarcasm, right? Just making sure.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I don't know if it is a lack of sleep causing me to mis-interpret this, but you appear to be saying that because 4E is the current edition of D&D, Edition Warring* against it should be permitted.

If I am mis-interpreting it, I do apologize.

* - Note that I am not talking about criticism, but edition warring.

Sorry, mudbunny, I didn't see this earlier.

Whenever there is an inequality of power, there is a disparity between how something looks from either side. In the aforementioned example, is it okay for the dragonborn to complain more than the tieflings? Should it not be permitted? Should the tieflings even care? Should the dragonborn just get over it and accept their lot in life?

From an ethical standpoint, the issue is a lot more grayscale than black & white.

The point, however, was that every post that belongs in the 4e forum that gets posted in General instead can easily appear like a shot across the bow. Similarly, every criticism of 4e can seem like trying to foment an edition war.

Dividing the sides between "us" and "them" is, IMHO, the major factor causing edition wars to rage.

"They" are aggressors. "We" are defenders.

"They" want to cause fights. "We" want our interesting material to be available.

"They" are negative. "We" are positive.

"They" should just call it a day and move on. "We" should stay the course.

IMHO, the reality is that there is very, very little difference between "us" and "them". The first step to resolving the edition wars is to accept that. The second step is to accept that "they" have as much right to post their stuff as "we" do....even if it isn't stuff that is particularly of interest to "us"....indeed, even if it is diametrically opposed to what "we" want.

At that point, you can reinforce commonalities while accepting differences. Who knows? Some folks might even be able to admit that other games might do some things better than their game of choice does (even if they aren't shifting what their game of choice is).....regardless of what their game of choice is.



RC

 

[DanFor]

In terms of edition warring, it's simply more productive to walk into a random FLGS and offer to run an open game of whatever your favorite edition is, and make sure the players enjoy it a lot.

Agreed. But, what else are we supposed to while we're bored at work? Play solitaire? At least if I'm typing, I can create the illusion that I'm doing something productive. LOL.

 

[Umbran]

The part where you keep quoting me?

I quote you because we are discussing a point. That doesn't mean the point is all about you.

Nope. That's a "Maybe WotC doesn't want other people to do it for legal (GSL?) reasons, but would like the idea" thing.

Well, it seemed to me rather different when you said, "I don't know 4e well enough to do the conversions myself. It might be something that WotC could offer on their site?"

You seem to be on a high horse about this for some reason, while saying you are not. Maybe it's just my "reader bias".

I don't see how I'm on a high horse when I have said, several times, that if you want to do it, you should go have fun with it.

 

[Mark]

Naturally, it is. It just requires some changes to be more inclusive to the tastes of those currently displeased and marketing toward those who are yet unreached.

Not necessarily. I can point to conflicting priorities in 3E (. . .)

You are creating this hypothetical more inclusive edition.

(. . .)

Maybe another question might be - why are people so unhappy with Pathfinder or D&D 3rd Edition (. . .)

I see no reason why a discussion of how to improve 4E to be more inclusive requires denigration of previous editions or other games (such as PF). This sort of negativity prevents dicussion of improvements and forces edition wars.

 

[Ourph]

I think the biggest problem in the EWs is that people who dislike a game enough that they no longer play it continue to complain about it. When I played 3e, I complained about the things I didn't like and felt entitled to do so. As soon as I left 3e for other games, I didn't feel entitled to complain anymore. As soon as I made the switch, my complaining no longer had any useful purpose (looking for ways to make my game better) because I had already found my solution (play another game). I can readily see how someone who likes 3e would have seen my continued complaints as edition warring and trolling if there was no chance that such complaints would serve any useful purpose to me.

I feel the same way about complaints regarding 4e. The ones that bug me aren't from people who are playing the game and have problems or want advice on how to make the game better. The comments that bug me are from people who have no interest in 4e other than to complain about how much it sucks and to spread negativity in threads where other people are trying to have constructive interactions.

PS - Someone do me a favor and give Munstrum XP for me. Great post mang!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, it seemed to me rather different when you said, "I don't know 4e well enough to do the conversions myself. It might be something that WotC could offer on their site?"

I worded it that way because I was attempting to avoid opening up the WotC-legal thing, because that in and of itself is a whole 'nother can of worms. I sent a private message to someone from WotC at the same time, asking them to take a look at the thread. What I hoped for was a kind note from WotC saying "We're not going to do it, but you can if you want under our Fan Policy (link included)".

See what I was trying to do?

Not calling anyone out. Trying to come up with a positive idea that could contribute to some community consolidation. No "face" lost anywhere. Good for fans of 4e. Good for fans of earlier editions. Win-win all around. Not interested? Well, you're not hurt either.

And perhaps that is what would have happened, if it wasn't immediately pounced upon as though it were something negative. Perhaps it still might happen.


RC

 

[ExploderWizard]

And perhaps that is what would have happened, if it wasn't immediately pounced upon as though it were something negative. Perhaps it still might happen.


RC

Yes it might. If not faced with legal blockage, I know it WILL happen.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I think the biggest problem in the EWs is that people who dislike a game enough that they no longer play it continue to complain about it. When I played 3e, I complained about the things I didn't like and felt entitled to do so. As soon as I left 3e for other games, I didn't feel entitled to complain anymore. As soon as I made the switch, my complaining no longer had any useful purpose (looking for ways to make my game better) because I had already found my solution (play another game). I can readily see how someone who likes 3e would have seen my continued complaints as edition warring and trolling if there was no chance that such complaints would serve any useful purpose to me.

I feel the same way about complaints regarding 4e. The ones that bug me aren't from people who are playing the game and have problems or want advice on how to make the game better. The comments that bug me are from people who have no interest in 4e other than to complain about how much it sucks and to spread negativity in threads where other people are trying to have constructive interactions.

PS - Someone do me a favor and give Munstrum XP for me. Great post mang!

The line separating trashing another person's game and talking about what you like about your game can be hard to see when it comes to 4E/3E. Its hard to see because we're talking about Dungeons and Dragons. For example, I like that the game is balanced at all levels, I like that spellcasters don't dominate the game, I like that the game is built around strong archetypal character classes with little hint of point buy, I like that the game has fully embraced a cinematic aesthetic based on modern fantasy(anime, LotR movies, comics, Wuxia, videogames, ect.), I like that the game has set aside almost all trappings of simulationism, I like that the game has a coherent and focused theme, I like that combat is tactical as opposed to randomly lethal, and I can go on. Much of the praise I have for 4E is where it differs from 3E, and as I am praising D&D 4E for this, and whether I mean it or not on some level I am dumping on 3E. I am praising D&D(the current edition) for not being 3E.

That might not be my intention, but it can be interpreted that way.