Effort or Activity Levels

[Ferrix]

So, I was thinking while looking at the rules for a game that I've had in the works for a while and it popped into my head that different levels or descriptors for types of actions just don't exist.

In the sense that how much effort does a particular action take.

So, the levels of effort would go from Negligible to Fatal. The range inbetween however, I don't have a great grasp on. I'd want examples for each. Each effort would then tie perhaps into the rules on fatigued, exhausted and a third category I use winded (lighter than fatigued).

So, I'm asking for help. Here's the levels of effort I've got so far.

None: None, you are probably dead.

Negligible: Lying in bed, drinking water, being fed. You barely even think about these activities.

Minor: Walking around, preparing a normal meal, the basics. Simple activities which don't take too much thought or energy, which you could do on and off for a whole day and barely felt like you did much.

Normal: Performing such an action is normal in your day-to-day routine, although prolonged action of this sort could leave you winded.

Moderate: Performing such an action will leave you winded, sprinting or running all out for an extended burst, fighting all out for an extended time.

Strenuous: Performing such an action will leave you tired, perhaps fatigued. Raging would be a good rules example, as would forced marching or hustling.

Formidable: Performing such an action will leave you exhausted, requiring you to rest soon after. This is pushing beyond the normal limits of your abilities.

Draining: Performing such an act will leave you drained and unable to function except for negligible action for at least a full day or two, sometimes much longer. This is at the very edge of your limits.

Fatal: Performing such an act will most likely kill you in the process. This is very likely beyond the limits of your abilities and only the strongest of willed can push themselves this far (fighting far into the negatives with the Frenzied Berserker's Deathless Frenzy).

 

[ChampionoftheTriad]

I think that sounds pretty good...but where are you going with this? Are you thinking of assigning these levels to all activities and setting up a new "fatigue system"? That would be cool, but I'm not sure how to do it.

 

[Nyaricus]

The back of From Stoen to Steel (an amazing book in and of itself, with over 3000 years of weaposn and armours from around the world for d20) has a section about effort and stuff you may very well want to check out - I don't use it but boy-o have I been tempted.

You could expand on it if you so wished.

 

[Ferrix]

The goal of the system is to add a bit of detail about the wearing effect of activities, so yeah, basically a slightly modified fatigue system. One that would be pretty simple and straight forward without having too much realism involved.

From Stone to Steel eh? I'll see if I can locate a copy.

Actions would be given an effort descriptor, like they have a supernatural, extraordinary, etc. descriptor.

Example:
Rage (Ex, Stren)

Tireless Rage would change the Rage abilities Strenuous Effort descriptor to a Normal Effort descriptor.

Also, somehow I'd like to incorporate a way that when something is at the limit of your skill, it is harder, while the more easily you could pass the check, the less effort you expend.

Example:
Rogue with +10 to Disable Device, vs. a DC 20 Trap, only needs to take or roll a 10 to succeed. Not a particularly large effort on his part. However, vs. a DC 30 trap, he has to roll a 20 to succeed, and that takes a lot of effort to try to accomplish. Thus, a DC 30 trap might Wind or Fatigue him, while a trap that is DC 35 mind Exhaust him if he somehow managed to disable it (bonus from aid another, spells, etc.).

I don't want to differentiate too much between mental and physical effort, because they can both be incredibly draining when they push you to your limits.

 

[paradox42]

I don't want to differentiate too much between mental and physical effort, because they can both be incredibly draining when they push you to your limits.

This may be true, but if so they definitely drain you in different ways. "Burnout" from mental fatigue is very different from physical fatigue from, say, running hard. For example, I don't see how a mental action could be so draining that it could kill you.

Perhaps something keyed off the stats that modify the skills used in the action would work- mentally draining tasks fatigue the INT of the character, perhaps, while physically draining tasks fatigue STR.

 

[Notmousse]

So, I was thinking while looking at the rules for a game that I've had in the works for a while and it popped into my head that different levels or descriptors for types of actions just don't exist.

Far too complicated for my tastes. Though if you want to head in that direction here's what I'd do.

Free actions are neglible.

Move actions are nominal taking all day to wear you out. Swift and Immediate actions would likely fit here instead of with free actions, but why the heck would you need to spend all day doing swift actions?

Standard actions are fatiging in large amounts (say half an hour of combat, or climbing a rock cliff the same amount of time).

Full round actions are exhausting in large amounts (half an hour casting a single spell, taking 20 on several locks), or fatiging in moderate amounts (a spell with a casting time of 15 minutes or so).

And on that note I think I've figured out what new feat.

Exhausting Rage
Whenever you rage you gain an additional +6 to Str, and Con, but at the end of the rage you become exhausted for standard duration (1 hour of rest brings you to fatigued IIRC).
Special: With the Tireless Rage class feature you become Fatigued instead of Exhausted.

 

[Lokar]

I like the idea of a fatigue system based on the ammount of effort actions take. However through reading this thread I'm not sure I can see the direction you're trying to go with it.

As for the exausting rage ability. I have to say it looks a pretty powerful for a general feat with no prereqs. With one feat you gain an additional 3 hp per level (granted for a limited duration, but hardly the point) At first level you would be gaining a +10 str +10 con bonus, thus a +5 to hit/dam and +5 hp, far to over powering without restrictions. At higher level (lets say 20th for arguments sake) you have greater rage, with this stacked on top of it you get a huge +12 str +12 con bonus, that's 120 hp +6 hit/dam, now here the additional hit/dam may not seem like a big deal, but the hp is absolutly insane. It would probably be better like this.

Exausting Rage (General)
Prereq:Greater Rage class ability, Tireless Rage class ability
When you fly into a rage youmay choose to enter an exausting rage. if you do you gain an additional +2 to your strength and constitution (totaling +8) In addition your rage lasts an additional 1 round per your newly modified constitution bonus.
When your rage ends you are fatigued as per the normal rage rules prior to gaining Tireless Rage.
Normal: When you enter a greater rage you gain a +6 bonus to both strength and constitution . You may normaly only rage for a number of rounds equal to 3 plus your newly modified constitution bonus. With tireless Rage you are no longer fatigued at the end of your rage.


This feat only grants you an additional +1 to hit and damage and an additional 1 hp per level for the duration, it also almost doubles the duration of your rage. I think it's much more reasonable then giving a +3 to hit and dam and +3hp. You could then follow it up with something like yours above.

Greater Exausting Rage(epic)
Prereq:Exausting Rage
Whenever you rage you gain an additional +6 to Str, and Con, but at the end of the rage you become exhausted.
Normal:When you enter a greater rage you gain a +6 bonus to both strength and constitution . You may normaly only rage for a number of rounds equal to 3 plus your newly modified constitution bonus. With tireless Rage you are no longer fatigued at the end of your rage.

This would net you a total bonus of +14 to your strength and constitution bonus, a +7 bonus to hit and damage (again not a big deal at this level) and at the very least 140 hp (level 21) whish Is certainly a note worthy bonus.

 

[Ferrix]

Far too complicated for my tastes. Though if you want to head in that direction here's what I'd do.

Well, it is not supposed to end up complicated. It would be an alternate set of fatigue rules, using basically the normal rules plus perhaps an additional condition or two.

Now, as to setting effort levels I haven't figured it out, but I'm intrigued by the thought still.

Expanded Physical Conditions:
Winded: A winded character cannot run nor charge and takes a -1 penalty on all Strength, Dexterity or Constitution skills and related checks. After ten minutes of complete rest a winded character is no longer winded.

Fatigued: A fatigued character cannot run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty on all Strength, Dexterity or Constitution skills and related checks as well as taking a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. A winded character would become fatigued by doing something which would normally cause winding. After eight hours of complete rest a fatigued character becomes winded.

Exhausted: An exhausted character cannot run nor charge and moves at half speed. They take a -3 penalty on all Strength, Dexterity or Constitution skills and related checks as well as taking a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. A fatigued character would become exhausted by doing something which would normally cause fatigue. After four hours of complete rest an exhausted character becomes fatigued.

Drained: A drained character cannot run nor charge and moves at quarter speed. They take a -5 penalty on all Strength, Dexterity or Constitution skills and related checks as well as taking a -10 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. An exhausted character would become exhausted by doing something which would normally cause exhaustion. After twenty-four hours of complete rest a drained character becomes exhausted.

 

[Notmousse]

As for the exausting rage ability. I have to say it looks a pretty powerful for a general feat with no prereqs.

Well, there is one requirement if you actually want to *use* the feat.

'At first level you would be gaining a +10 str +10 con bonus, thus a +5 to hit/dam and +5 hp, far to over powering without restrictions.'

Well it does have the whole, 'must be able to rage' bit, but I suppose a +6 is a wee much. I was initially thinking +4, but then the Complete series popped into my head and I jabbed the 6 key instead. For the most part the HP are useless as they go away very quickly, and you do die at -10 no matter what. So these 'hypothetical HP' are avoided like the plague IME, only brought up when a Power Word spell of Harm comes into play. The reason for it not requireing Tireless Rage as a class feature is that it takes a special kind of desperate to knowing exhaust yourself as the penalties are *huge* and take some time to recover naturally.

'This feat only grants you an additional +1 to hit and damage and an additional 1 hp per level for the duration, it also almost doubles the duration of your rage.'

Which is fairly useless is most combats. If combat lasts over two minutes you'd best think about running if any of your party is left alive.

 

[Notmousse]

That system means that it'll take a whole lot longer for someone to get back to a normally rested state than normal. It takes 36 hours and 10 minutes to go from drained to normal if my math's right, and that's just loony. It takes less time to recover from 12 points of ability damage spread evenly across your stats than to recover from a heroic effort.

I'd used the 'winded' version from the core rules (mentioned when talking about overland travel IIRC) which boils down to you can't charge or run, and need a minute to catch your breath.