Eladrin vs. Elves

[Banshee16]

It's particularly important given that films like LotR have actually popularized the term "Wood Elf" and many games have concepts of Wood Elves and High Elves which clash with what they want to do with them.

TLDR: Eladrin ain't sylvan.

Except that in LotR, they had multiple groups of elves, filling different roles, with minor stat differences between them, if any.....ie. Wood Elves/Sylvan Elves, Grey Elves, Noldor, etc.

As to assuming that they're sylvan, maybe we have different definitions. All elves, in current editions, *tend* to be depicted as being sylvan. They live in relative harmony with nature, don't tend to clearcut forests etc. That holds true whether they're grey elves, high elves, or wood elves....with the exception of drow.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

It seems to me to be co-opting an otherwise useful monstrous NPC race of use in order to create the illusion that it's not just a subrace.

A rose by any other name and all that...

Bingo....sorry, don't have time to write more...but yeah....they're taking the name of the eladrins, to create an arbitrary split in a race which worked fine already. And now, what do we do with the "real" eladrins? The ones we had with Planescape and 3E? Are they gone? I happened to like them, myself.

You could easily have one race, and simply differentiate its role through selection of racial feats, sort of like what they did with Dawnforge, from what I remember.

So now, instead of High Elf and Wood Elf we're going to have...uh.....Eladrin and Elf. And they look very similar to each other, but have different names, and different powers and stuff, because you know, it's cool to have them be a different race. And then, we can create a new, similar race that makes a good cleric, and sell it in a splatbook two years from now, and then another one who makes good barbarians, etc. But they're not the same race, nor are they subraces of the same race. Because we need to have clearly differentiated races for every role in the game, since players can't be trusted to figure it out on their own.

Still don't like what I'm seeing..

Banshee

 

[William Ronald]

Bingo....sorry, don't have time to write more...but yeah....they're taking the name of the eladrins, to create an arbitrary split in a race which worked fine already. And now, what do we do with the "real" eladrins? The ones we had with Planescape and 3E? Are they gone? I happened to like them, myself.

You could easily have one race, and simply differentiate its role through selection of racial feats, sort of like what they did with Dawnforge, from what I remember.

So now, instead of High Elf and Wood Elf we're going to have...uh.....Eladrin and Elf. And they look very similar to each other, but have different names, and different powers and stuff, because you know, it's cool to have them be a different race. And then, we can create a new, similar race that makes a good cleric, and sell it in a splatbook two years from now, and then another one who makes good barbarians, etc. But they're not the same race, nor are they subraces of the same race. Because we need to have clearly differentiated races for every role in the game, since players can't be trusted to figure it out on their own.

Still don't like what I'm seeing..

Banshee

Someone at WotC said in response to Ari's guess that on some distant worlds with names like Arvandor or Arcadia, powerful and even more alien eladrin with strange names like gaele and braelani dwell: You're a smart man, Ari.

So, expect the powerful eladrin to be around.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I'm really hoping I've misunderstood/misinterpreted what they're going to do.

I think you have. For starters, you're instantly assuming that the Eladrin will be a sylvan race but we have nothing yet to suggest that this is the case. Furthermore, nothing suggests that an Elf can't be an accomplished wizard, so if you want a sylvan wizard it should be possible. I suspect that an Elf wizard will be better at dodging, evading hazards, or spotting enemies, while an Eladrin wizard will be able to augment his spells and be a better orator.

We also have no firm idea what the features of Eladrin will be like, but I bet the difference between an Elf and an Eladrin appearance will be similar to the difference between an Elf and a Drow. While I can tell that Elves and Drow are related, because of their appearance and cultures these two races are very distinct in my mind (it's much like the difference between Dwarf and Gnome, IMO).

 

[Klaus]

It seems to me to be co-opting an otherwise useful monstrous NPC race of use in order to create the illusion that it's not just a subrace.

A rose by any other name and all that...

Maybe, just maybe, they're making the Elves the weakest (and mortal) type of Eladrin.

 

[Intrope]

IMO, the Eladrin and Elf split is a pretty darn cool one. I can't wait to see the story behind it. It sounds to me like the Eladrin are a highly magical race, the "parents" of both Elves and Drow. Ages ago, a group of Eladrin were somehow separated from the rest of the race (exile? left behind? left on their own?) and as a result of ages of wars with nature, humans, orcs, and so on, the inherently magical nature of the Eladrin was shaped into a woodsy, wild race.

In the mythic past, the Drow could have been Eladrin who made pacts with Lolth or researched dark secrets. Whatever the case, the magical essense of the Eladrin was somehow corrupted to the form it is now.

Nifty theory! I like the Elf/Eladrin split; it's a nice homage to Tolkien. Besides, it captures something that's become very common in how D&D tends to be run: that most elves are Forest/Nature centric, rather than a lofty, mystical people.

Now, given that Eladrin seem to be quasi-planar entities (this was alluded to on EN world by one of the designers) it seems likely that they will still fill the Knight-Errants of the Planes role too. Which could mean that Drow are essentially Eladrins who have turned to darker powers for their mystical side--making them Knave-Errants of the Planes? Hmmmm...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Why do I need two sylvan races, differentiated primarily by whether they're going to be used for an arcane vs. martial class? It creates an arbitrary distinction based on factors which shouldn't be related to race. In fact, it's a giant step backwards to the days of 2nd Ed., when playing a druid meant that I had to have a half-elf or human, rather than an elf, because you know....elves apparently aren't good as druids, or can't be them for some reason.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but 3E has the same issue, with its 45 subspecies of elves, each of which has different stats and, typically, different favored classes. I suspect you could come very close to having an elf subrace for every class in the PHB, except the monk.

And yes, Eladrin are still a step in that (bad) direction. So that is bad, I agree.

But, on the other hand, elves are just ... elves. No subraces.

If that's the deal I have to take -- no more subraces of anyone, in return for this one final subrace split -- it beats the alternative.

 

[Skyman]

Also keep in mind that one of the playtests has an eladrin ranger. If it was just that elves were the 'ranger race' and eladrin the 'wizard race', I doubt we'd see that.

The bits we've seen about eladrin (their focus on reason and intellect, for instance) sound a bit Vulcan-like, and although Vulcans and Tolkien's Elves look quite similar and have some commonalities, they are very different races.

 

[Fobok]

Personally, I like the whole thing for the default book. I just hope that they keep the subraces for Forgotten Realms. (Or, at least a historical reference to them, if they get wiped during the spellplague.) Forgotten Realms needs it's sun and moon elves, even if just historically speaking. (I don't mind changes to the setting, as long as they don't try to retcon the past.)

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Maybe, just maybe, they're making the Elves the weakest (and mortal) type of Eladrin.

Eladrin = ub3r-l337 elf PC race?

I hope not. It took an entire edition to get over that last time.