Eladrins, Tieflings, Dragonborn Too Far Outside Standard Fantasy?

[theNater]

Outside the scope of standard fantasy...

and gelatinous cubes are straight out of Tolkien... right

Now let's be fair. The original poster objects to the presence of nonstandard material in the PHB. Unless there's something you know that we don't, let's assume gelatinous cubes do not feature prominently in that publication.

 

[ArchAnjel]

Offhand, I guess I'd point to Lords of the Rings for the first, general Asian fiction and poor video games for the second, and an abundance of Dragonlance books for the third.

I guess I don't see the elves of Tolkien as being Eladrin - they're elves. And I guess I don't see general asian fiction and poor video games to be a staple of the fantasy genre. Dragonlance had the draconians as a race of minions specific to that world - and that's fine for a world-specific supplement but to put them into the PHB as a core race implies they're supposed to be in the assumed default fantasy world. And I just don't buy that.

As to what I consider classic fantasy, I would probably point to Tolkien, Jack Vance, Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, etc.

Maybe it's just a generational thing.

 

[Dormain1]

Originaly posted by theNater
dragonborn showing up in Dragonlance.

Please dont say this, Dragonborn are not Draconians, please

I know what you are saying, and you are right 4E have stolen heaps of ideas from DL

Dragonborn do not explode/turn to stone when they die, they don't fly like some Draconians can and Draconians don't breath fire

Due to the 4E shift, and the fact Draconians have learnt to breed
"You put what where....ewww"

Dragonborn maybe written up as the lesser offspring of Draconians (thanks Cam)

I just think after how well half dragons were done and how popular they were WotC though hey why not, and while we are at it lets make kender halflings fearless

As Dm's and players communicate what they want their 4E experience to be certain races wont get played and others will, I will be having Gnomes IMC, but that just because DL did create a niche for them

I think the more ideas put into the PHB the better

 

[Dunamin]

Now let's be fair. The original poster objects to the presence of nonstandard material in the PHB. Unless there's something you know that we don't, let's assume gelatinous cubes do not feature prominently in that publication.

Oh man, never though about playing Ol' Jello before.

 

[Rechan]

Also.

Spiked chains, double axes/flails, alchemist fire flasks, glow-stick rods, glue bags...

Totally standard fantasy.

 

[Rechan]

Please dont say this, Dragonborn are not Draconians, please

I know what you are saying, and you are right 4E have stolen heaps of ideas from DL

Well really, Dragonborn are two things.

1) People like dragon races. Players like dplaying half-dragons in 3e.

2) They're reptiles. Some people really, really like lizardfolk, kobolds, and saurials as PCs (kobold here!).

So the designers decided to give those players what they wanted right up front.

 

[Durlok]

Regarding Eladrin vs. Elves... It's just the name. From what I can tell, Eladrin are mostly just the old "High Elves" - the less tree-hugging sort of elf. They haven't changed that much except in name.

As for tieflings and dragonborn, though, I think they stem from how many people wanted to play tieflings or half-dragons in 3ed - from what I saw, that was quite a few. They're also not that uncommon in fantasy stories, particularly things similar to tieflings - the "hero tainted by dark power" archetype is pretty common, and tieflings are just one way of approaching it.

That said, though, the genre's moves on from Vance and Tolkien. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with sticking to those if you like, but there's been a whole lot of new fantasy material since them, and I feel that for D&D, sticking solely to those would simply cause it to stagnate. Not that the game ever has stuck solely to those - look at some of the monsters and classes that've been included over the years. The core races have just taken a bit longer to shift.

 

[MindWanderer]

Before this goes any further, what do you consider stock fantasy?

Robert Aspirin, who just passed away recently, has some fantastic Tiefling style characters in his Myth series. While Aazh(sp) is strictly a demon in description, he'd work pretty well as a tiefling.

I'm actually going to be basing my first 4e campaign loosely on the MYTH cosmology. It's a neat way to run PoL and allow for absolutely anything. Aahz has a great tiefling temperament, even if he's green and scaly (his race is called the "Pervects" but everyone calls them "Perverts"), and other races (like the Imps and the Deveels) have the tiefling look to them.

I think that I, like many D&D grognards, am so used to the D&D/Tolkien fantasy that I mistake it for "default." In reality, there's a ton of stuff in D&D that never really resembled anything else. Gnomes are absolutely pure D&D, and saying that gnomes are more "traditional" fantasy while tieflings aren't just doesn't make any sense. No one every objected to illithids or beholders being in the core rulebooks (although I squirmed at garbage like ethereal filchers when I first saw the 3e MM). I can see an objection to warforged outside of Eberron, but sentient constructs are actually more stereotypical of fantasy literature, in my experience, than halflings or even 5-foot elves.

 

[Incenjucar]

Aside from LotR, I haven't read any of those authors.

I got my sense of fantasy from Mythology (which has an incredible array of weird humanoids that is really under appreciated), cartoons, and things like Xanth and Dealing with Dragons and the Myth books.

Later I found D&D, and I was immediately drawn to Planescape races, and the animal-based races (tabaxi, lizard men, and thri-kreen), and Saurials.

I found genasi to be especially awesome in concept, if not necessarily in execution.

And, of course, there are the films and cartoons I grew up with, and various sci-fi races...

Comic books, certainly, are a pretty huge influence, too.

That's my standard fantasy.

 

[Dormain1]

I have no problem with dragonborn, I think its about time they bought something like this in as a standard player race (it is DnD after all), I would have prefered they were Draconians but that just because Draconians have a better flavour to them and a history but they might not be for everyone.

And Im sure WotC did not want everyone saying they just ripped them from DL (which they own btw)

This way I can have both Draconians and Dragonborn