elemental battle

[Bad Paper]

Fire elemental fighting any other type of elemental:
Although all the base elementals have approximately equal base damage (e.g. for Large elementals it's Air 2d6+2, Earth 2d8+7, Fire 2d6+2, Water 2d8+5), the fact that the fire elemental does its extra burn damage (e.g. 2d6 fire for Large) means that it's going to whup the others. Is this fair?

I was thinking specifically of a fire vs. water battle. Should the water elemental take not only the burn damage but also have to make a Reflex save to keep from burning? That is totally absurd, but it's RAW. Also, the water elemental's Drench ability would not work against its firey opponent. How can I equalize this?

I'm thinking of throwing the Burn ability out the window, and maybe giving the water elemental's Drench attack do some kind of damage against the fire elemental. 2d8 for Large seems to mesh seamlessly into the rules, but that's quite a bonus to pull out of thin air.

Whaddaya think?

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I was thinking specifically of a fire vs. water battle. Should the water elemental take not only the burn damage but also have to make a Reflex save to keep from burning? That is totally absurd, but it's RAW. Also, the water elemental's Drench ability would not work against its firey opponent. How can I equalize this?

Whaddaya think?

I think it's nowhere near as simple as you make it seem.

First 2d6+2+2d6 is about 9+7 or 16 average damage. 2d8+5 is about 14. That's only two points up for the fire guy.

The water elemental has an AC 2 points higher than the fire elemental. Edit: Only 1 point with dodge, missed this line when I caught it the first time.

So....fire hits at +10 versus AC 20, needs to roll a 10, hits .55 of the time.
Water hits at +10 versus AC 19, needs to roll an 8, hits .60 of the time.

The fire guys averages out 8.8 an attack, water 8.4.

The water has more hit points so it really starts to come down to luck. I might bet on the Fire guy since he's more likely to win iniative. In either case it's not a slaughter.

The elementals are really quite balanced as is. I'd take another look and remember 2d8+5 is alot more than 2d6+2. Also as hit dice increase the water's higher con will swamp the fire guy. I really think at Large and Huge is the only place Fire has any chance at all. Below the fire does too little damage compared to the water and above power attack will decide it since attack bonus starts to equal AC.

 

[Bad Paper]

The elementals are really quite balanced as is. I'd take another look and remember 2d8+5 is alot more than 2d6+2. Also as hit dice increase the water's higher con will swamp the fire guy. I really think at Large and Huge is the only place Fire has any chance at all. Below the fire does too little damage compared to the water and above power attack will decide it since attack bonus starts to equal AC.

You make some good points. Thank you. I hadn't really done the math on the average damage. What about the fire's Burn attack? Does it really make sense for a water elemental to catch on fire?

Furthermore, I'm looking for a way to give the water elemental *some* kind of slight advantage, because the fight is actually a Large water elemental vs. an Elder fire elemental. Yes, I know, he won't last long. Looking at the description of Drench, it looks terribly similar to the spell Quench (same spell level and everything). What if Water, instead of fighting, decided to suicidally throw himself at Fire, doing 8d6 damage, like a Drenchy-Quenchy kinda thing? Is this totally ridiculous? Has anyone done something like this?

Otherwise, the water elemental is only going to last two rounds, and land maybe half the damage that the Drenchy-Quenchy thing would do (remember Fire's DR10/-).

 

[Nail]

What about the fire's Burn attack? Does it really make sense for a water elemental to catch on fire?

Errr? Perhaps you mis-read this part:

Drench (Ex): The elemental’s touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin ....

The Water elemental can't catch on fire, as it puts out all non-magical fire it touches. The "touch" does not require a specific body part. It's clearly touching any part of its own body that a fire elemental hits.

(It can't "put out" the Fire Elemental itself, but it sure as heck can put out any fire caused by an attack!)

 

[Bad Paper]

(It can't "put out" the Fire Elemental itself, but it sure as heck can put out any fire caused by an attack!)

aha
OK, so Fire's Burn attack is essentially worthless against Water. What about the fire damage from its slam? [I don't like to use "fire" as an energy type; we call it "heat."] I assume that Water takes full damage from heat; after all, it's not a steam mephit...

As an aside, what damage *does* the fire elemental's Burn attack do, when someone burns for a couple of rounds? Is the damage each round the same as the heat damage from its slam attack? Or is it just something like the 1d6 from alchemist's fire?

 

[andargor]

aha
OK, so Fire's Burn attack is essentially worthless against Water. What about the fire damage from its slam? [I don't like to use "fire" as an energy type; we call it "heat."] I assume that Water takes full damage from heat; after all, it's not a steam mephit...

As an aside, what damage *does* the fire elemental's Burn attack do, when someone burns for a couple of rounds? Is the damage each round the same as the heat damage from its slam attack? Or is it just something like the 1d6 from alchemist's fire?

First, as a player with a character having all ten Elemental Savant (Fire) levels (hence, a fire elemental), I object to your obvious bigotry towards Fire!

Seriously, the rules for Catching on Fire are as follows (short answer, 1d6 + 1d6/round, fire elemental's DC to extinguish or save your items):

Catching on Fire

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.

Andargor

EDIT: And here's my character, if you're curious

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

You make some good points. Thank you. I hadn't really done the math on the average damage. What about the fire's Burn attack? Does it really make sense for a water elemental to catch on fire?

Yea, it doesn't in the least bit make any sense. I generally avoid saying a special attack doesn't work because it's target is 'weird' but I'm all for it here. (The drench is a fine BS explaination of why if you want some game mechanic backing.)

Furthermore, I'm looking for a way to give the water elemental *some* kind of slight advantage, because the fight is actually a Large water elemental vs. an Elder fire elemental. Yes, I know, he won't last long. Looking at the description of Drench, it looks terribly similar to the spell Quench (same spell level and everything). What if Water, instead of fighting, decided to suicidally throw himself at Fire, doing 8d6 damage, like a Drenchy-Quenchy kinda thing? Is this totally ridiculous? Has anyone done something like this?

As a DM you are free to do what you want. I'd suggest thinking very carefully about introducing something like this if you wouldn't want the PCs to routinely try it. Now a SNA 5 to do 8d8 hit points to a fire elemental isn't absurd. For consistancy I would assume it does the water elemental's hit points in damage and require a touch attack. It would of course completely destroy the water elemental. (In this case the Elder fire will just be slightly peeved.)

Otherwise, the water elemental is only going to last two rounds, and land maybe half the damage that the Drenchy-Quenchy thing would do (remember Fire's DR10/-).

I'd be shocked if he lasted that long. It's a CR 5 against a CR 11. Stuff that doesn't create precedent issues: The water elemental in question might be exceptionally buff, with max hit points per a hit die. With the above it'd let him do a more sizable amount of damage in a way very difficult to replicate (i.e. Elemental Swarm.)

 

[juliaromero]

How about making a steam elemental that combines properties of Water, Air and Fire elementals? A drowing whirlwind that does continuous heat damage.

 

[Nail]

aha
OK, so Fire's Burn attack is essentially worthless against Water.

Yep.

What about the fire damage from its slam?

The poor water elemental doesn't have fire resistance or immunity, so it takes full damage.

What's the context of this "elemental battle", anyway?

 

[Bad Paper]

What's the context of this "elemental battle", anyway?

The party I am DMing is in one of the WotC adventures (name withheld to avoid spoilers), about to bump into the aforementioned Firey. I know that one of the PCs has an elemental gem (water), and another one of them is an elemental-summoning-happy druid, so I am getting my questions out of the way before it actually happens. I hate for action to slow to a crawl, and am always pulling judgments out of thin air to keep things going (I hate hate hate saying, "waitaminute" and searching through three books for the answer). This discussion will prevent any stalling of the action.

{It is true, however, that one of the PCs in the party occasionally skims these messageboards, but c'est la vie; if he reads this he'll know not to waste the damn gem just because he can't think of any better use for it. He usually hangs around on the WotC boards, and I hang around here, so we don't get in each other's way. I guess he's also on the Monte Cook boards because he is the DM for my party in RttToEE, but I never go over there.}