Elemental questions...

[Amazing Mumford]

Okay, I have some questions about elementals.

1) If an elemental is in it's natural environment, is it any harder to spot? For example, if a fire elemental were inside of a fire, or a water elemental in a pool of water? What if an air elemental was just kinda floating around in the air?

2) Could an air/fire/water elemental have any items, like if it were an NPC or cohort or something? Like could the water elemental have a Brooch of Shielding floating around inside of it? Could an air elemental have a Ring of Protection?

3) What about volume-- would a huge air elemental be able to enter a Bag of Holding? The elemental would only weigh 8 lbs, but it's height is 32 feet-- which I assume would easily fit inside 30 cu. ft. I'm pretty sure this would work.

 

[Ahnehnois]

1) By the RAW, AFAIK, no. That said, a large circumstance bonus to hide checks might be appropriate in some circumstances; fire in fire, water in water, etc. It is important to note that air elementals are not invisible (they are in air most of the time).

2) A fire elemental's items would take damage from its abilities. The shape of an elemental is amorphous and not conducive to magic items. In an exceptional case as you describe, I would say maybe a small number of items would be suitable (ioun stones, rods, etc., things that don't require a body space because the elemental doesn't really have any of the standard slots).

3) 30 cubic feet is not likely to hold an elemental that size (since this is roughly a cube 3 ft. on a side not a 30 by 30 by 30 ft cube). The rules aren't clear on how much you can scrunch the things up, but even in the case of air, I'd say not all that much (squeezing a closed container of air is not easy). As written, bags of holding are for small, heavy things (I wonder if the description is actually right about that volume).

 

[frankthedm]

3) What about volume-- would a huge air elemental be able to enter a Bag of Holding? The elemental would only weigh 8 lbs, but it's height is 32 feet-- which I assume would easily fit inside 30 cu. ft. I'm pretty sure this would work.

Not if the elemental is more than a foot thick.

30 cubic feet is not even a quarter of a 5' square.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

Hmmm, descripton of the air elemental doesn't say anything about length or width...

So, assuming human-proportion length and width, how many cubic feet would be needed to hold a large air elemental? How about a huge one??

 

[Ahnehnois]

If a huge elemental is 32 ft. long and is only half that tall and a 10th that wide (conservative; if you look at the few existing pictures they look similar in all dimensions), it still takes up over 1600 cubic feet. If it is instead 32 ft. in all dimensions, that's over 32,000 cubic feet. A huge elemental is not likely to fit in any of the standard bags of holding, or anything similar that I'm aware of.

 

[Runestar]

IMO, if it is solid enough to be hit, it is solid enough to wear eq. Fluff-wise, just cook up some reason why that ring of protection can be supported by an air elemental.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

IMO, if it is solid enough to be hit, it is solid enough to wear eq. Fluff-wise, just cook up some reason why that ring of protection can be supported by an air elemental.

Good point-- i.e. having a Brooch of Shielding floating around w/in a water elemental. You can still apply the "item slot" rules-- the elemental would still only be able to make use of only 2 rings, for example. Stranger things have happened!

Anyway, going on with the "container" question, what about the amorphous qualities of the air and water elementals? Would a Large or Huge one be able to fit inside a portable hole?? How about the largest size bag of holding? I'm sure they can alter their dimensions somewhat-- wouldn't they be able to go down a sewer grate, down/up a chimney, or underneath a crack in a door?

And, going on with the "natural environment" question, what kind of a circumstance bonus do you think would apply to a water elemental hiding in a pool, or a fire elemental hiding in a fire, or an earth elemental blending into a hillside?

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

As for containers: Here's an estimate the volume of a water elemental (taking water to be 60 lb/cu.ft).

[B] Elemental      ht(ft)     wt(lb)   [COLOR=Cyan]vol(cu.ft.)[/COLOR]  width(ft)[/B]

Small            4            34        [COLOR=Cyan]0.6 [/COLOR]     0.4
Medium           8           280        [COLOR=Cyan]4.7[/COLOR]      0.8
Large           16         2,250       [COLOR=Cyan]37.5[/COLOR]      1.5
Huge            32        18,000      [COLOR=Cyan]300.0[/COLOR]      3.1
Greater         36        21,000      [COLOR=Cyan]350.0[/COLOR]      3.1
Elder           40        24,000      [COLOR=Cyan]400.0[/COLOR]      3.2

Air and Fire elementals I can envision with similar dimensions. Earth elementals, not so much (IMO, they ought to be shorter and much heavier.)

The biggest bag of holding is 250 cu.ft, so a Huge (water) elemental wouldn't fit, even assuming it's perfectly fluid and amorphous (which, unfortunately, the descriptions in RAW don't indicate). Portable hole is 10ft deep, and description only mentions medium and small creatures; maybe a large would fit uncomfortably, but it wouldn't have much air (I'd rule 2 minutes of air only).

 

[frankthedm]

And, going on with the "natural environment" question, what kind of a circumstance bonus do you think would apply to a water elemental hiding in a pool, or a fire elemental hiding in a fire, or an earth elemental blending into a hillside?

The 8 point bonus in appropriate environment seems reasonable. [examples Gargoyles, stone giants, gricks, troglodites ]

Some won't even NEED Hide checks though.

Earth can just sit IN the hill and thus be hidden.
Water submerges and now has total cover.

 

[FEADIN]

Yes but hiding behind "air"....
To wear a ring you need fingers, are elementals fingered, some pictures seems to show they have.