Elementals and Charm

[catsclaw227]

Can elementals be charmed? And if so, what happens to a summoned elemental that is charmed by the enemy to turn on it's summoners?

Here's the scenario: My party was being harrassed by an erinyes devil, when they pulled out a recently discovered Shades scroll. The sorcerer then used it to cast Monster Summon VIII and summon a greater air elemental to take out the eyrines. (granted it was a shade version, and we assumed 4/5 power on the elemental)

First, assume the elemental was real and not a shade illusion of one --

The erinyes cast charm monster (DC 19). Are elementals affected by charm? We're all seasoned players and GMs and thought we remembered something about elementals being immune to enchantment/charm spell, but there wasn't anything in the DMG or MM about it (nothing we could find at least... it was like 2am though and we were brain-fried).

Anyway... if it was affected by charm, then it failed (rolled a 7, has a Will +9). Can a real (non-shade/illusion) elemental be turned back on it's summoners with a charm monster or suggestion/domination spell? If the mini-pact created by a summoned creature and it's master is broken, does the summoned monster return?

Second Question -- Since it WAS a shade version, an illusion, of a summoned creature, how does that work?

Catsclaw

 

[ViciousPenguin]

There's nothing I can see in the Charm Monster spell or in the Elemental type description that would indicate that they cannot be charmed.

As to the whole 'shade-illusion' thing . . . ???

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Can elementals be charmed? And if so, what happens to a summoned elemental that is charmed by the enemy to turn on it's summoners?

Yes, you can charm an elemental. It has a crappy Will save, so charming it is a good idea.

But if it's summoned, do both the summoner and charmer control it? I assume the charmer controls it, but it will vanish when the spell's duration runs out, and the summoner can still dismiss it (no save for the elemental). But maybe opposed Charisma checks (as if two people charm or dominate the same creature) should be used instead.

Second Question -- Since it WAS a shade version, an illusion, of a summoned creature, how does that work?

Catsclaw

I have no freaking clue. Sorry. I'm sure this is a corner case, meaning it's up to the DM.

 

[catsclaw227]

Yes, you can charm an elemental. It has a crappy Will save, so charming it is a good idea.

But if it's summoned, do both the summoner and charmer control it? I assume the charmer controls it, but it will vanish when the spell's duration runs out, and the summoner can still dismiss it (no save for the elemental). But maybe opposed Charisma checks (as if two people charm or dominate the same creature) should be used instead.

I think that the summoner would just dismiss it, but what a waste of a high level spell. It would make more sense to do the charisma check, at least it would give the summoner a chance.

I have no freaking clue. Sorry. I'm sure this is a corner case, meaning it's up to the DM.

Yea. I am not sure either. The Shades spell actually just creates an illusion so can illusions be charmed? I think not. But would the erinyes think that it just saved vs the spell? Maybe a knowledge arcana or a spellcraft check would be in order.

Any other ideas anyone?

 

[werk]

I believe elementals are subject to charm (same as horrid wilting ). It effects 'living creatures' which elementals currently fall under. Some people house rule this.

Even though it is shadow illusion, the illusion is 'quasi-real' so acts just like the spell being reproduced with reduced effect if the target disbelieves.

The elemental thinks that the erinyes is a trusted friend and ally, not it's summoner.
Charisma check to make it do anything, as per Charm Person. Elementals are pretty dumb, but he would probably consider attacking the summoner and friends as suicidal.

It's dismissable as a standard action by the summoner.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Yea. Charm != Total Control.

I would say that a quasi-real illusion would NOT behave the same way, however. It's an illusion of a creature, not actually a creature. It has stats, but no real substance.

--fje

 

[werk]

I would say that a quasi-real illusion would NOT behave the same way, however. It's an illusion of a creature, not actually a creature. It has stats, but no real substance.

I follow that line of thinking... A shadow conjured elemental is not an elemental, so is not a valid target of charm monstern. That makes my brain hurt...

 

[catsclaw227]

I believe elementals are subject to charm (same as horrid wilting ). It effects 'living creatures' which elementals currently fall under. Some people house rule this.

Ugh.... I remember the infamous Fire Elemental and Horrid Wilting thread.

Even though it is shadow illusion, the illusion is 'quasi-real' so acts just like the spell being reproduced with reduced effect if the target disbelieves.

The elemental thinks that the erinyes is a trusted friend and ally, not it's summoner.
Charisma check to make it do anything, as per Charm Person. Elementals are pretty dumb, but he would probably consider attacking the summoner and friends as suicidal.

But can a 'quasi-real' creature be charmed? If it's an illusion, it would simply act as the caster desired. Wasn't there a WOTC article on illusions and quasi-real creatures?

I would say that a quasi-real illusion would NOT behave the same way, however. It's an illusion of a creature, not actually a creature. It has stats, but no real substance.

This sounds right to me. But it's the quasi-real and illusory distinction that is giving me a headache.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I think of it sort of like the holodeck on Star Trek.

Which is to say ... I have no freakin' idea what they're smoking, but hey, it's cool. Illusions are sort of solid because, well, LOOK! :glitterdust:

--fje

 

[frankthedm]

Summoning a critter puts its will at your beck and call, Charming it makes it the charmer's best friend. If you are summoned, you have to kill, at your best ability, your summoner's foes. If your best friend in the multiverse is the foe, you 'll feel really bad about it, but thats it. Charm muddles your free will, being summoned overrides it.