Elminster? Really? Why is he so popular?

[Olgar Shiverstone]

After viewing the GenCon keynote with it's six-novel FR transition, novel by Ed Greenwood and Elminster key character:

Yeah, I enjoy the Realms. I'm not a fanboy or canon expert, but you can make it a good place to adventure. I appreciate that Ed shared the setting with us.

I can see people being Drizzt Do'Urden fans (though I'm not one); whether you like his characters or not Salvatore can put some action scenes together.

But, honestly, are there fans out there who really dig Eliminster? Or do they just buy the Elminster novels because they are written by Ed Greenwood?

If so, what am I missing?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've only read one or two Elminster stories before I swore them off. It seems like power fantasy. I generally don't use the term Mary Sue to describe him, as he's not fanfiction, and isn't an idealized version of the author, but he's a "Canon Sue". Elminster without magic is still the smartest, most competent character around who never seems to make a mistake, cannot fail to seduce a woman unless she's an elf who has personal reasons to hate him, and if he rolls a natural 1 on his Int checks, the goddess of magic that he had sex with will rescue him. With magic and he becomes a boring invincible hero. (You can tell you read too much TV Tropes when...)

But there's people who like that kind of book. They're the fans who will insist their favorite character is "the greatest" and the book is filled with proof of that.

Other books featuring Chosen of Mystra are like this too, although to a lesser extent. (Khelben can occasionally mess up, and I'm not talking morally.) From other Greenwood stuff that I've read (Knights of Myth Drannor, the Kingless Land), he's a good author as long as the Chosen of Mystra are shown the door.

I don't have the attention span to watch videos of that length anymore, and I don't know if it's possible to watch a livestream after it's done, so in short I didn't watch the linked video. All I can say is Elminster was downgraded into a crazy character too afraid to use magic (also downgraded stat-wise, although that wasn't strictly necessary; Elminster's stats were always the least cheesy part of the character)and I thought he should stay that way, so how can he headline a series of books? Characters like him were my least favorite part of the Realms, and I was glad to see him and Mystra dumped. Fortunately, there's other settings out there.

 

[nato]

I really dislike Elminster. He is some kind of bad fantasy trip and was just inescapable back when. Here's an anecdote:

The third edition FRCS book had a great reputation. I bought it to check it out.

FR is a vast setting packed full of detail. The Elminster character sheet was front and center, like page 5 or something. Of this vast, highly detailed world, one of the very first things they had to tell us, so important it had to go this early in the book because we really needed to know... was that Elminster had sex with the goddess of magic.

Elminster and Drizzt made it very difficult for me to appreciate FR, from the grey box on. Or at least some of its emphasis.

 

[Kaodi]

Spellfire Trilogy is just horrible. The guy is a great world creator, but with any other name on the cover his Forgotten Realms novels would be worthless.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Please, something new for the realms.

Actually scratch that.

D&D needs new campaign settings desperately.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

[declaration of bias]I'm a fan of the Forgotten Realms from the original Dragon articles to the Old Grey Box and even the post-Spellplague version published for 4E (except for the map which I can truthfully state, without hyperbole, is the worst world map published for D&D ever). [/declaration of bias]

I think Elminster is one of the weaker FR characters and I am surprised that he sells well enough to feature in a double trilogy. I've only read one Elminster novel and I would like that time back if at all possible. I don't like Elminster erotica either and I sincerely wish that wasn't part of the Greenwood oeuvre.

I think Ed is otherwise a true creative genius and there is nobody else who can make a world come alive as he can. He is a master of both the big picture and the small vignette... but I wish he wouldn't write soft porn.

As for Salvatore, he's a hack. I admit he is a successful hack but his formerly-praised fight scenes now seem like parodies of his earlier work and his system of naming - and of reducing NPCs to a speech impediment - make sure his work doesn't feel like it belongs to the Realms.

The Realms does have some genuinely good authors now - Paul Kemp, Richard Lee Byers, Erik Scott de Bie, Rich Baker (I still cannot believe WotC retrenched him but kept some of the others) et al - and their characters are more interesting and believable than Elminster. I would run with one or more of them rather than a double trilogy of Elminster, especially if the whole purpose is to ensure that there is a sense that the Realms is being reborn.

 

[delericho]

I'm certainly not a fan either of Elminster or of Ed Greenwood's fiction, but...

If their goal is to "make the Realms right", then I'm inclined to think that the series has to be written by him. And if Ed's writing, Elminster is probably part of the package.

 

[Ulrick]

The Forgotten Realms isn't about player-characters adventuring and determining their own destiny. It's more about Greewood showing off Elminster, his favorite character. Everything else, the massive world creation, the other characters from the novels, is just a vapid sideshow.

IIRC, WotC altered the FR for 4.0 is to get Elminster out of the spotlight. In reality, Elminster didn't really dominate the setting, but many people criticized the setting for Elminster's dominance. (I side with the latter camp).

You see this with nearly every single Forgotten Realms article or supplement. They usually begin with some anecdote by Elminster. In the "Wizard's Three" articles from Dragon Elminister would often make the other two wizards from Dragonlance and Greyhawk look foolish. And as already pointed out, the 3.0 FR guide was great, but on page 5, there's Elminster!


When it comes down to it, Elminster is basically Ed Greenwood's childhood imaginary friend. In Dragon once, Erik Mona commented on a short story Greenwood wrote when Greenwood was like seven years old. Not everybody can write profitably about their childhood imaginary friend. So I guess I can't blame Greenwood for grabbing that opportunity and running with it.


So this behavior is not going to stop anytime soon as long as the Forgotten Realms remains viable and profitable.

Edit: A quote from the keynote. Greenwood: "There will be war. Gods & their chosen will take part. So will normal people. Your characters will be a part afterwards." This proves my point.

 

[Valetudo]

I +1 for new settings. I think both Ed and Margeret spent to much time in their worlds and both settings suffered for it.

 

[Desdichado]

I won't read them. I don't particularly like the Forgotten Realms as a novel setting, I haven't ever liked a book written by Ed Greenwood yet, and I think Elminster is a terrible character. That said, I'm the stereotypical FR griper type, so clearly I'm not the target market of this initiative anyway. I'm sure there's gotta be a bunch of FR fans who welcome this development, and it was a strategic move to appeal to them. :shrug: I just ain't one of 'em.