EN Common Vocabulary vs. Forge Terms

[Morrus]

Well what word do you use to describe game mechanics that feel intrusive, abstract, unthematic, naked, distractive, unimmersive, etc.?

"Rubbish game design" works for game mechanics which feel intrusive and distractive. I don't think those rather condemnatory adjectives apply to all that is "gamist" though. Is chess intrusive and distractive?

Here's my issue: the suffix "ist" implies that the thing in question has a theoretical background, or at least should be respected as a thing that has been thought through and considered valid by other people.

Not at all. "Racist" is a classic example.

 

[Libramarian]

I do not think the suffix -ist implies that libramarian. It just means a person who does a particular thing or having a particular quality (i.e. Racist, agriculturalist, cyclist, elitist, etc).

When the ist is related to an ism (as it is understood to be in the case of gamist--gamism), it implies an ideological commitment. I don't think that the use of gamey mechanics should be thought of as an ideology. I think that gives too much respect in a sense to a thing that's just a tool. It's like seeing someone using a hammer and calling them a hammerist. It doesn't make sense. There's no reason to believe in hammers in themselves separate from their function.

I use those words.

What's a naked game mechanic? Something without fluff?

Gamey is better because it's more specific.

A naked mechanic is one where its non-simulation purpose is too apparent.

Like a guy walking around with his biological purpose in full view.

Or at least that's how I understand it: @Starfox used that word first.

"Rubbish game design" works for game mechanics which feel intrusive and distractive. I don't think those rather condemnatory adjectives apply to all that is "gamist" though. Is chess intrusive and distractive?

Almost no one plays chess expecting to feel immersed in its medieval battle theme, so its gameyness is of almost no consequence.

RPGers prioritize this immersive aspect very highly relative to boardgamers, so gameyness in itself is definitely a negative in RPGs, but if its beneficial effect on play is enough to overcome this, then the net result is positive.

Not at all. "Racist" is a classic example.

OK...even if gamist is used in the sense of racist, to refer to a belief that is not valuable or respectable and is just a bias, I still don't think it makes much sense to call gamey mechanics gamist. Gamey mechanics aren't always good or always bad. They're a "necessary evil" sometimes.

But regardless...this is just a side criticism. The main reason gamey is preferable to gamist is because of what Starfox pointed out in the OP: gamist is used for a different, also important idea (gameplay focused on player challenge).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think gamey is a kind of an ism though just like minimalist is an ism. These are both approaches to design that suggest a point if view and style. When people say 4E is gambits design , and mean its gamey, the its makes sense because it seems to reflect an overall design philosophy . But none of that even matters because semantics aside all that matters is people very widely use the word gamist in the sense of being gamey. You can argue word structure all day but what matters is how the word is used.

 

[Starfox]

"Is chess intrusive and distractive?.

No. Of course chess is gamey/gamist, but that is how it is supposed to be. 4E is also designed to be as it is. I just happen to find the design of 4E to be too similar to chess for my liking. This is not a fault of chess or of 4E, it is just my opinion. I am not a bif fan of chess either.

Gamey/gamist is not inherently bad, it only becomes bad when it is outside the range we enjoy.

 

[Lanefan]

All I know is every time anyone has ever started quoting Forge stuff at me in here my eyes glaze over and I quickly move on to the next post.

Lan-"is there an 'ignore' button for Forge?"-efan

 

[SkidAce]

All I know is every time anyone has ever started quoting Forge stuff at me in here my eyes glaze over and I quickly move on to the next post.

Lan-"is there an 'ignore' button for Forge?"-efan

"must spread xp around"

Yup, and if I don't understand what someone means, I should ask them.

Its when I "assume"...

 

[Dausuul]

All I know is every time anyone has ever started quoting Forge stuff at me in here my eyes glaze over and I quickly move on to the next post.

Lan-"is there an 'ignore' button for Forge?"-efan

Agreed. Quite frankly, I've never had the impression that the Forge's own definitions of its words are particularly firm, and most of the Forge-talk I've read has been long on verbiage and short on useful insights.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

All I know is every time anyone has ever started quoting Forge stuff at me in here my eyes glaze over and I quickly move on to the next post.

Lan-"is there an 'ignore' button for Forge?"-efan

Agreed. Quite frankly, I've never had the impression that the Forge's own definitions of its words are particularly firm, and most of the Forge-talk I've read has been long on verbiage and short on useful insights.

So, what youre saying about their terminology is...forgeistabouddit.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I recognize the problem, having been frustrated at some off-key (to me) discussions when I returned to gaming three years ago. Like others, I don't think you can "fix" this by throwing more jargon at it.

I don't think that anybody used gamist to mean what we would rather people call gamey prior to the Forge. Gamism was a term used in the GDS theory predating the Forge's GNS, but it means the same thing there as it does in GNS.

It was, though, and was one of the terms that threw me for a loop when first bumping into the Forge. It meant "feels like a game", generally in reference to either board- or video games. The term may have fallen out of favor during my hiatus, though, before returning at the Forge or something, but people hurled this term at bits of 3e.

 

[Starfox]

[Gamey] meant "feels like a game", generally in reference to either board- or video games. The term may have fallen out of favor during my hiatus, though, before returning at the Forge or something, but people hurled this term at bits of 3e.

This is my use of the term as well.