EN Common Vocabulary vs. Forge Terms

[Starfox]

And I dont really like the idea of needing a style guide guide and glossary to talk about RPGs.

I'm quite happy with it as it is now, a quietly simmering conversation deep in the background.

 

[Libramarian]

The one that I find really irritating and indefensible is using "gamist" when they mean "gamey".

People do this because they've heard the word "gamist" used in its Forge context, without understanding what it means, and then they use it to mean something different because they think using a word with "ist" on the end instead of "ey" makes them sound smarter and gives their opinion more weight. It's pretentious and legitimately confusing.

I've been discussing board games lately over on BoardGameGeek and posters there use "gamey" to mean "the mechanism is too abstract or naked and causes me to lose a sense of identification with the game's theme" all the time. No one ever uses "gamist". Gamey is the natural word for this and should be used.

As an example of how these terms differ in meaning (don't actually want to argue this here), I think D&D 4e is gamey and yet not very compelling for gamist play. I think AD&D is both less gamey and more gamist than 4e.

There's no need to read the Forge essays to participate in RPG discussion. But don't use the Forge terms unless you've read them. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

[Starfox]

Actually, I think that Forge hijacked the word gamist. When people intuitively use the word gamist, they seem to mean what you Libramarian (And I in the OP) call gamey. I suggested the new usage to avoid collision. In that way, I subordinated my suggested terms to Forge.

In this use:

Gamist = competitive or acheivement-oriented game agenda
Gamey = game mechanics that are too naked and become abrasive

The other option is to ignore Forge, use gamist for situations where the rules are naked, and use competitive or challenging for gamism in the Forge sense. Closer to intuitive language, really.

In this use:
Competetive, confrontational = competitive or acheivement-oriented game agenda
Gamist, Gamey = game mechanics that are too naked and become abrasive

 

[Morrus]

The one that I find really irritating and indefensible is using "gamist" when they mean "gamey".

People do this because they've heard the word "gamist" used in its Forge context, without understanding what it means, and then they use it to mean something different because they think using a word with "ist" on the end instead of "ey" makes them sound smarter and gives their opinion more weight. It's pretentious and legitimately confusing.

I've been discussing board games lately over on BoardGameGeek and posters there use "gamey" to mean "the mechanism is too abstract or naked and causes me to lose a sense of identification with the game's theme" all the time. No one ever uses "gamist". Gamey is the natural word for this and should be used.

Eeek! So now folks have to learn the jargon of two external websites before they post here, not just one? I feel singularly unqualified to post on EN World now. "Gamey" to me has always meant "smells like pheasant"; I've never heard it in any other context, and don't have any immediate plans to start using it that way.

 

[Starfox]

"Gamey" to me has always meant "smells like pheasant".

* laughs

This is what having your native language as the lingua franca of the world will do to you; foreigners like me will come around telling you what your words really mean. That's mean!

Sorry, I have no easy solution to this.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The one that I find really irritating and indefensible is using "gamist" when they mean "gamey".

People do this because they've heard the word "gamist" used in its Forge context, without understanding what it means, and then they use it to mean something different because they think using a word with "ist" on the end instead of "ey" makes them sound smarter and gives their opinion more weight. It's pretentious and legitimately confusing.

I've been discussing board games lately over on BoardGameGeek and posters there use "gamey" to mean "the mechanism is too abstract or naked and causes me to lose a sense of identification with the game's theme" all the time. No one ever uses "gamist". Gamey is the natural word for this and should be used.

As an example of how these terms differ in meaning (don't actually want to argue this here), I think D&D 4e is gamey and yet not very compelling for gamist play. I think AD&D is both less gamey and more gamist than 4e.

There's no need to read the Forge essays to participate in RPG discussion. But don't use the Forge terms unless you've read them. I don't think that's too much to ask.

the forge doesn't own the language though,and these words have spread beyond the forge taking on new meanings. The issue is, people do not have any obligation to learn forge terminology. Gamist has just become another word for gamey in a lot of quarters.

 

[billd91]

"Gamey" to me has always meant "smells like pheasant"; I've never heard it in any other context, and don't have any immediate plans to start using it that way.

Maybe not necessarily pheasant, but I too have primarily heard the term gamey to describe something that is a bit ripe smelling or "off" in taste compared to typical meats - mainly based on the taste of game animals with less fat than your average farm-raised creatures. So I use the term gamist to describe elements of games that, I think, are oriented more toward the game-based aspects of the RPG. I think it's fairly natural to use the -ist suffix because it does indicate that the element is oriented toward or characteristic of the root - gamist = oriented toward the game aspect, characteristic of the game aspect.

 

[Libramarian]

Actually, I think that Forge hijacked the word gamist. When people intuitively use the word gamist, they seem to mean what you Libramarian (And I in the OP) call gamey. I suggested the new usage to avoid collision. In that way, I subordinated my suggested terms to Forge.

I don't think that anybody used gamist to mean what we would rather people call gamey prior to the Forge. Gamism was a term used in the GDS theory predating the Forge's GNS, but it means the same thing there as it does in GNS.

Reviewing the Forge glossary, I think they actually have a term for what we're calling gamey: "pervy". Their term emphasizes that a game with any sort of creative agenda (story-focused, challenge-focused, sim-focused) can have intrusive mechanics that don't "fade into the background". All the same, I prefer the word gamey.

other option is to ignore Forge, use gamist for situations where the rules are naked, and use competitive or challenging for gamism in the Forge sense. Closer to intuitive language, really.

Here's my issue: the suffix "ist" implies that the thing in question has a theoretical background, or at least should be respected as a thing that has been thought through and considered valid by other people. When gamist is used to describe gamey mechanics, I am concerned that it implies that gamey mechanics are valuable in themselves. They aren't. They're only valuable to the extent that their beneficial effect on play outweighs their inherent distractiveness. They're a tool, not an agenda.

Eeek! So now folks have to learn the jargon of two external websites before they post here, not just one? I feel singularly unqualified to post on EN World now. "Gamey" to me has always meant "smells like pheasant"; I've never heard it in any other context, and don't have any immediate plans to start using it that way.

Well what word do you use to describe game mechanics that feel intrusive, abstract, unthematic, naked, distractive, unimmersive, etc.?

 

[jonesy]

Well what word do you use to describe game mechanics that feel intrusive, abstract, unthematic, naked, distractive, unimmersive, etc.?

I use those words.

What's a naked game mechanic? Something without fluff?

 

[Bedrockgames]

I do not think the suffix -ist implies that libramarian. It just means a person who does a particular thing or having a particular quality (i.e. Racist, agriculturalist, cyclist, elitist, etc).