D&D 5E Encounter Balance holds back 5E

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Just like WotC, I've never payed any attention to that nonsense.

It's very much nonsense, but it is also very important. If you don't follow that system a lot of the class design problems are exacerbated.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's very much nonsense, but it is also very important. If you don't follow that system a lot of the class design problems are exacerbated.

I’ve never followed “the system” and never had any class design problems.

You are worrying about the wrong stuff.

 

[Shardstone]

I've been around long enough to see all of the 'Tyranny of Balance' arguments. 'Tyranny of Fun' and Tyranny of Cool' too.

This is more a tyranny of had balance then balance overall. Deeper nuance, ever richer flavor; life evolves, spring dies, winter springs. Uh...

 

[Shardstone]

Then the definition is already a problem.

In a formal discussion, its usually polite form to go through one person's idea first before targeting definitions. I know on this specific forum you guys prefer to actually just argue definitions for 100 pages, but I ask this one time you go with the definition and only come back to critique it after going through the rest of my ideas.

I have to stress that this is how an actual academic or formal discussion would be held.

 

[Parmandur]

2. An 8 Charisma Barbarian WILL outshine my 18 Charisma Bard in Charisma checks with expertise with good rolls by the former and bad rolls by the latter. Not can outshine, but will outshine.

This is a table problem: a 8 Charisma PC without relevant proficiency shouldn't even be making certain rolls in the first place.

 

[Shardstone]

I think this is a false premise. At every table, in every game, one player outshines all the other players in any given session. IMO there has never been a session played in any RAW version of D&D where all players contributed equally. The drivers of this are not class, subclass or level. The primary drivers are the in game choices, dice and adventure design in that order.

1. Choices. A player who makes good choices will contribute more. A player who makes bad choices (whether logically smart or not) will get bad results - the fragile Sorcerer who smartly backs up away from the Orcs at the door and an Ogre comes through a secret passage and kills him. Or an example from play tonight - we knew we need a light shined on a door to open a secret passage and my Wizard figured "what about one of these lit candles on the floor" and when she picked it up Mummys jumped up out of the Sarcophogi and nearly killed one of the PCs in a fight that was "easy". This is before you even consider the stupid choices (or on the other side brilliant choices). Choices drive this more than anything else.

2. An 8 Charisma Barbarian WILL outshine my 18 Charisma Bard in Charisma checks with expertise with good rolls by the former and bad rolls by the latter. Not can outshine, but will outshine.

3. Someone who built a PC to excel at the exploration pillar will probably be outshined when a session is entirely focused on social interactions with a little bit of combat. The things above it on this table (choices, dice) could change that, but rarely will.

Those are the three biggest things that affect one player outshining the others at the table. While mechanics, class design can and do favor or bias the to the benefit of certain classes, the root cause of one player outshining the other at the table are not these things. They are the things listed above are and they are in that order.




This is a great point.

I'm confused, I mention player competency and tastes in the post, which is exactly what you described, so I'm not sure how what you quoted is a false premise since you just expounded upon what I said.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Certainly you've got to be kidding if you don't think pretty much every WotC adventure (aside from a very arguable handful of mini-adventures in Candlekeep/Radiant) is not focused squarely on combat, combat, combat

Now, I don’t buy all the WotC adventures, only the ones that appeal to me, so there may be a selection effect, but I haven’t found that. I would suggest you are falling for the fallacy that if something has a stat block killing it is the only way you can interact with it.

I would say there has been a general trend though the 5e period away from combat-focused adventures.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

I’ve never followed “the system” and never had any class design problems.

You are worrying about the wrong stuff.

No. It's definitely a problem that casters are balanced around a limited resource while martials are balanced around having fewer limited resources. If you have few encounters then you are effectively giving casters unlimited spell slots.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

No. It's definitely a problem that casters are balanced around a limited resource while martials are balanced around having fewer limited resources. If you have few encounters then you are effectively giving casters unlimited spell slots.

So what? It’s never bothered my players. In my experience player tactics matters far more than who has the most powerful combat character.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's very much nonsense, but it is also very important. If you don't follow that system a lot of the class design problems are exacerbated.

It's still a poor design to make a tool no one wants to use. It's like having a knife that can only be sharpened with the tongue.