D&D 5E Encounter Balance holds back 5E

[Gorck]

Because running feels bad and unheroic in this heroic fantasy game.

I’d consider the Fellowship to be pretty heroic, but they sure as hell ran away from the Balrog that would otherwise have obliterated them.

 

[Umbran]

Fair enough. I'd love to see more of that sprinkled into the game and not mostly in one marketing pitch for one adventure, and also see it outside the Fey theme (which I'm not a huge fan of and which IMO WotC has overused).

I think the tradition of the game has been combat-heavy since 1e, and Witchlight is an interesting and entertaining experiment playing against the tradition. However, I don't know that I (and more importantly WotC) have seen sufficient call for it to drive them to make such more central to overall play or game design. I hope Witchlight sold well enough that they'll do more such things in the future, but I expect it will be contained to an occasional adventure design.

 

[jayoungr]

I’d consider the Fellowship to be pretty heroic, but they sure as hell ran away from the Balrog that would otherwise have obliterated them.

I don't disagree, but on the flip side, there's a difference between watching a party run away in a book or movie, and deciding to run away as a player. I think the key is for the GM to set expectations in a "session zero" as to whether challenges will be potentially manageable or not. If everyone goes in knowing that there will be threats in the game that are out of their league, then running away becomes an easier decision.

A while back, when writing a homebrew adventure, I polled players on the threat level they'd like to see: I asked whether they wanted to have some encounters they would have to run away from, whether they wanted everything to be at least potentially beat-able even if difficult, or whether they wanted everything to be as balanced as possible. They opted for "Potentially beat-able even if difficult," although a couple of players did vote for the option to put in some monsters that were too tough to fight.

 

[Parmandur]

First, I apologize but I did not have time to read post this first paragraph (meeting starting in 5 minutes).

Your thesis may or may not be accurate; however, one great thing I found in 5e early on (like about 8-9 years ago) was that you don't need to worry about encounter balance in 5e. Just populate your world with people and monsters that make sense for the story of your world and it pretty much works. The idea that you need to fine tune encounters with an XP budget and such is hogwash IME.

So, while you may be correct - is also something (the encounter balance) that can be complete ignored with ease in 5e (IME)

That's because Encounter design and the Adventure Day are a limit on a sliding scale, not an absolute rule. Anything more than the suffered limits will likely get deadly, anything too far less might see certain characters overperform relative to others, but finding the sweet spot for a group is pretty chill.

 

[overgeeked]

While I agree, CR is bad and unbalanced combat makes for far more interesting game play, there’s just too many assumptions in this. First, you’re not beholden to using the CR guidelines. Second, you’re not forced to use monster stats as is. Third, you can reskin anything, see the “use a bear” meme. Fourth, in the decade 5E’s been out I’ve never seen anything to suggest that “5E’s promise of uniting mechanics with the fictional world” is a thing that actually exists. This is literally the first moment I’ve seen anyone suggest this is even a thing.

There are tons of “unbalanced combat is more fun” articles and videos.

 

[Umbran]

Note that I specifically called out this adventure as a great example of what I'd like to see more of in the future.

Yes, but let us note something: Witchlight's approach to accomplishing this is not rules-based. Nor is it about finding ways for lower-level characters to beat stronger foes in combat. And to be honest, the PCs don't have to look too hard for ways of dealing with the powerful antagonists - in general, in Witchlight, the antagonists are more than happy to tell the PCs what they want.

Thus, this isn't about Encounter Balance. That's a red herring. It is about giving your antagonists motivations and desires that the PCs can interact with. You can leave the Encounter Balance rules completely as they are, and generate Witchlight.

 

[jayoungr]

The level 5 party will not encounter an Adult Red Dragon and have to creatively navigate around it; they'll encounter, at best, a Young Red Dragon, if that, maybe even just a Wyrmling.

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if someone else has pointed this out, but: Hoard of the Dragon Queen, the very first 5E adventure book, starts out with a level 1 party encountering a town under siege by an Adult Blue Dragon. The objective of the encounter is just to wound the dragon and drive it off. The adventure was ROUNDLY and vigorously condemned for this. Since 5E was in its infancy at that point, I don't think you can say that the expectation of balance is unique to this edition.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure. And arguably the inflexible 4e license suggests that, too. But irrespective of their motives, the nature of the game and community always forced them to backpedal on whatever clamping down they attempted.

None of that makes their motives irrelevant.

 

[Parmandur]

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if someone else has pointed this out, but: Hoard of the Dragon Queen, the very first 5E adventure book, starts out with a party encountering a town under siege by an Adult Blue Dragon. The objective of the encounter is just to wound the dragon and drive it off. The adventure was ROUNDLY and vigorously condemned for this. Since 5E was in its infancy at that point, I don't think you can say that the expectation of balance is unique to this edition.

At the same time, the dragon's motivation for being there (he is only present at the siege for contractual obligations and doesn't like being exposed) and for leaving ("oh, no, Adventurers, that wasn't in my contract, I'm out") are pretty well explained.

 

[MockingBird]

The green dragon and the banshee in Phandelver is a pretty good example of a combat that should be negotiated or flat out run from. When I introduced the game to my wife and kids I told them it was perfectly okay to retreat from combat (or if possible, completely avoid it). I'd say we play it in an old school fashion. They explored the early level of sunless citadel with a 10' pole and found a few traps this way (until the pole was destroyed). I rarely us encounter balance and usually build what I think is cool. Mostly we run published adventures and I feel these adventures offer a nice variety of encounters. Not sure how the majority may play with encounters, my experience is purely anecdotal.