Encounter Help Requested (my players stay out)

[meleeguy]

So, a party of 1st levels is crossing a foot bridge (no railings) in the swamp. *tromp* *tromp* *tromp*. Surprise! There's a ghoul under there!

During the surprise round, the ghoul tries to drag a character into the water by grabbing an ankle and pulling. What should this be? A trip attack? Grapple attack? If all goes well, how long 'til I get a character in the water? I'd like to do this as close to RAW as possible.

The goal is not to kill a character (necessarily), but rather have a fun, interesting encounter. If someone dies I don't want (overly) upset players. Is this too much for 1st levels?

Thanks in advance. I love these boards - best thing to ever happen to D&D.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Purely by the rules, it's not easy to get exactly the effect that you want.

If the ghoul had Improved Grab, it would work, since the grapple moves the target into your space.

With a normal grapple, however, the ghoul moves into the target's space... he could then 'drag' the target back into the water with his next standard action (ie next round):

Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.

A Trip check would normally drop the target prone in its own space. If the bridge is slippery, you might rule then that a balance check or Reflex save is required to avoid falling into the water - possibly with a circumstance penalty for having a ghoul hanging off their leg!

More guaranteed is a feat from Oriental Adventures - it's unlikely a ghoul vs a 1st level party could meet the prerequisites, of course:

GREAT THROW [GENERAL]
You can throw your opponents to the ground, choosing where they land and dealing damage in the process.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Dexterity 13+, Dodge, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: When you make a successful unarmed trip attack against a creature no larger than your own size, you can choose where the creature lands, within the area you threaten. In addition, you deal your normal unarmed strike damage to the opponent. The creature's movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, no matter how far you move it. When you use this option, however, you cannot make a follow-up melee attack using the Improved Trip feat.

My personal inclination would be either to go with the Trip + Balance check (with a penalty), or to say "It's a special ghoul!" and give it Improved Grab.

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

What mechanic you should use will depend upon what you want to do.

A trip attack will make the character fall prone. In the environment of a narrow, railless wood bridge, it would be reasonable to grant a character a reflex save to avoid falling into the water. The trip attack works in one action (and, indeed, the ghoul could make the rest of his attacks if he has a full attack action) but provokes an AoO unless the ghoul has Improved Trip and isn't exactly pulling the enemy into the water.

A grapple check sounds very much like what you want to do. Unfortunately, however, the effect of a normal grapple would be to move the ghoul into the victim's square--on the bridge--rather than pulling the victim into the ghoul's square--the water. So, the ghoul would have to start the grapple and then make another grapple check to move his victim into the water on the next round. The grapple would also provoke an attack of opportunity if the ghoul doesn't have Improved Grapple.

A bull rush would also work. Since it's a narrow bridge, you only need to move the victim 5 feet to knock them into the water and if the bridge is slick or otherwise unstable, you might apply a -2 to -4 penalty to the PC's roll representing that. Unfortunately, it provokes an AoO if the ghoul doesn't have Improved Bull Rush and pushes the victim into the water instead of pulling him in. However, it's the best method to get a PC into the water so far--it takes only one action and single check, unlike the grapple that takes two actions or the trip which should grant a second check to avoid falling into the water.

The thing you really want is a ghoul with Improved Grab. That way, the ghoul would hit with a claw, automatically attempt to start a grapple, and if it wins, it gets to pull the victim off the bridge and into his square--in the water. Unfortunately, ghouls don't have Improved Grab and there's no direct rules method I know of to give it to them.

So, you could ad-hoc a ghoul with Improved Grab. You could add a level of monk and substituting Improved Grab for Improved Grapple--pretending it's a feat or a level of fighter and again treating it as a feat with a pre-requisite of a natural attack. You could also make this ghoul a variant ghoul that has Improved Grab instead of Paralysis. (I think that's probably a fair trade in this case (though it would rarely be fair in the other direction) so no change in CR would be necessary). Or you could use a work-around like Trip of Bull Rush that gets close to the initial idea but doesn't quite get it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... but provokes an AoO unless the ghoul has Improved Trip...

The grapple would also provoke an attack of opportunity if the ghoul doesn't have Improved Grapple.

Unfortunately, it provokes an AoO if the ghoul doesn't have Improved Bull Rush and pushes the victim into the water instead of pulling him in.

Surprise round

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Surprise round

-Hyp.

Combat Reflexes. Or a good Spot/Listen check

 

[Thanee]

During the surprise round, the ghoul tries to drag a character into the water by grabbing an ankle and pulling. What should this be? A trip attack? Grapple attack? If all goes well, how long 'til I get a character in the water? I'd like to do this as close to RAW as possible.

During the surprise round, the ghoul can probably only surface and get into attack position and then would have to win initiative to grapple and drag the victim down into the water, but that won't work in a single round either.

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

Hm, assuming ghoul gets surprise it'd be touch attack (at -4 to hit if you're generous) followed by opposed STR check, or ghoul STR vs PC's Balance skill if higher (& dwarves would get the +4 Stability bonus in either case). If ghoul wins, the PC goes into the river. Note that the PC has not been slashed by the ghoul (ghouls don't have Improved Grab) so won't be paralysed. I would definitely run this without giving the ghoul Improved Grab or other extra-special powers, it's deadly enough as-is.

 

[S'mon]

As a house rule I would base the opposed STR check on 1d6+total STR rather than d20+mod, that's just me though.

 

[werk]

Combat Reflexes. Or a good Spot/Listen check

They are first level, which supports hyp.

I'd probably look at using a crocodile instead of a ghoul, he's CR2, can improved grab, and has skill focus: hide. You could nerf it a little bit to get CR1 or if your level 1's are like mine, they should be fine. I figure, the water is taller than your boots or there wouldn't be a bridge.

 

[meleeguy]

Wow, lots of good information.

I think I'll give them two spot checks, one hard on the approach to the footbridge to detect the ambush, and another more moderate one to negate surprise as the ghoul surges out of the water.

The depth of the water shall be such that a standing medium size creature is at a perfect height to attack the legs of someone on the bridge. The ghoul starts hidden, then must make some sort of move (as Thanee pointed out). If it started prone, it is clearly a move action to rise. The rules appear silent however, if I rule the ghoul starts in a crouch instead. From there I should be able to lash out as a standard action.

I like the crocodile idea Werk, that definitely goes into the playbook. If I understand the rules correctly, the croc could execute a charge (from further away) in a surprise round yes?

I think the trip + balance check approach (Nods to Hyp and E-B) is the way I'll go. A character could end up in the water, but it's far from certain. Since my goal is to scare the players, the ideal situation would be to score the trip and have them just make the balance check. My motivation for this encounter is to throw a low level undead at the party without the cleric immediately negating it. The cleric then has the chance to save the other party member if he realizes it is an undead. The terrible stench and appearance of the ghoul should give it away, but that is not certain.

Thanks everyone for the great replies. Good to know about improved grab for later on especially.