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encountering a villian early, deflate him? Or give as is?
- Thread starter fba827
- Start date
LostSoul
Adventurer
Here is a 3rd option:
Turn it into a non-combat situation.
What does the bad guy want? Does he realize that, since he can't leave, he is screwed? Why not bargain for his life?
Being a "miniboss" I assume he's got lots of information to give to the PCs. Have him trade his life for information like this. Maybe he has things he can teach the PCs - new rituals in 4E, or a prestige class, or whatever.
This might actually be better for the PCs. If they are able to get valuable information from him, they'll get more than they would just from killing him.
Anyways, while he's talking with the PCs, have him try to corrupt them over time. If you're playing 4E this could be a good place to use a skill challenge, but that requires a certain style of play.
Turn it into a non-combat situation.
What does the bad guy want? Does he realize that, since he can't leave, he is screwed? Why not bargain for his life?
Being a "miniboss" I assume he's got lots of information to give to the PCs. Have him trade his life for information like this. Maybe he has things he can teach the PCs - new rituals in 4E, or a prestige class, or whatever.
This might actually be better for the PCs. If they are able to get valuable information from him, they'll get more than they would just from killing him.
Anyways, while he's talking with the PCs, have him try to corrupt them over time. If you're playing 4E this could be a good place to use a skill challenge, but that requires a certain style of play.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
Let the guard lay siege to his castle/manor/dungheap/etc, while the pcs sneak in through the sewers/secret tunnel/wine celler/etc. The pcs MUST get the drawbridge down so the guard can take the castle before the bad guy's reinforcements/dragon/etc gets back to fry the guard. Or maybe they need to rescue prisoners, disable the magical whatsit, etc. The guard wades through the cannon fodder, the pcs have a chance to shine and save the day - or die horribly in a dungeon. 
Also gives the bad guy a chance to use his more powerful spells/attacks before the pcs confront him.
Also gives the bad guy a chance to use his more powerful spells/attacks before the pcs confront him.
The Human Target
Adventurer
Remove the guards somehow from the equation. Have them focus on henchmen or somehow get taken out early.
Level the mini-boss down from impossibly high to just pretty hard.
The point of the game is for everyone to have fun, not teach lessons about the vagaries of sandbox style play.
Level the mini-boss down from impossibly high to just pretty hard.
The point of the game is for everyone to have fun, not teach lessons about the vagaries of sandbox style play.
First, what do you're players want? Some want to have the opportunity to take out high level guys with ingenuity, with the understood risk of absolute buttkicking being handed to them, while others prefer the game to be in a certain range of "fair" encounters. Have you asked them how they would like you to go about it?
How free are you with game-term info in game? If you describe stuff in a "in character" tone, you can fudge the numbers, cover it with story, and everyone gets what they're happy for.
I would say, have the guard fight the boss, and lose. After the guard has softened him up, run the boss as a solo a few levels higher than the party, and justify it as him already being pretty beat up. That way, the boss gets set up as a real threat, and the players get to save the day. Win-Win.
How free are you with game-term info in game? If you describe stuff in a "in character" tone, you can fudge the numbers, cover it with story, and everyone gets what they're happy for.
I would say, have the guard fight the boss, and lose. After the guard has softened him up, run the boss as a solo a few levels higher than the party, and justify it as him already being pretty beat up. That way, the boss gets set up as a real threat, and the players get to save the day. Win-Win.
Cerebral Paladin
First Post
I agree with the various people who say that, in a sandbox style game, you shouldn't be lowering the miniboss's power level to make it more appropriate for the PCs. That said, a fight between a more powerful enemy and the PCs plus allies can still be fun and exciting. If the PCs lose, okay. If the PCs win because they brought along the right allies, that can be fine, too.
I've played in games where the PCs functioned as the clever people figuring out who needed to be taken down and when and then calling in the cavalry (in the form of allies or whatnot) to do the actual fighting. It can be very satisfying and fun. It's a little odd, and players who need the big fight to feel happy may be disappointed, but I like it as an approach. That said, if you go this way, you want to be careful to make the PCs manage their resources. If they get the guards killed now, there will be less (or less capable) guards next time (or the king may be unwilling to let the guards go with the PCs next time). If they're sending NPCs to put out fires, there more be more fires than the NPCs can deal with at any one time. And obviously, to the extent that there's opportunities for the PCs to wade in to play a critical role, that's great.
I've played in games where the PCs functioned as the clever people figuring out who needed to be taken down and when and then calling in the cavalry (in the form of allies or whatnot) to do the actual fighting. It can be very satisfying and fun. It's a little odd, and players who need the big fight to feel happy may be disappointed, but I like it as an approach. That said, if you go this way, you want to be careful to make the PCs manage their resources. If they get the guards killed now, there will be less (or less capable) guards next time (or the king may be unwilling to let the guards go with the PCs next time). If they're sending NPCs to put out fires, there more be more fires than the NPCs can deal with at any one time. And obviously, to the extent that there's opportunities for the PCs to wade in to play a critical role, that's great.
Trying to answer all the questions (apologies if I missed one!)
Yes, I was being a little vague partially because 3 of my 5 players have a reasonable chance of seeing this thread (though they pretty much know most details, just not the details about the miniboss other than a general idea). And also, partially to spare everyone a long-winded story about the miniboss. But, in order to answer some of the questions that were brought up ....
My players (D,J,M,E,and K), stop reading just in case! I know you're grown-up enough not to try and let this affect your actions, but still, just stop reading.
Background
[sblock]
In very very basic terms, there is a powerful relic and trapped inside is the miniboss. While inside, the miniboss is tapping in to the relic's power and doing bad things.
The only way the PCs have found to destroy the relic would also free the miniboss trapped inside.
When they found the way to do this, I told them in game (by way of the NPC that gave the information) that "... it would be unleashing a very strong foe, the likes of which is unknown but power that they have not yet seen, as fearsome as some dragons of legend..." And, later, I told them out of game during a casual conversation that it is a very high difficulty creature that can kick their collective "rear ends" with but a gesture.
Thus, they are getting the king's men to come help them, hoping it will be enough.
[/sblock]
About the miniboss
[sblock]
The party is currently 5th level.
The miniboss (as originally conceptualized) is (I don't want to say the exact number) .... let's just say in the teens level). Generally, I have been okay with upping or downing a creature by a level or two from my original concept depending on the level or the party to keep things proportionally appropriate. However, deflating from "teens" to something for the 5th level party just seems like a huge deflate to me.
The miniboss is basically in the relic so he will pretty much 'be there' once the PCs go to it and do the thing
i will not have a hard time giving this miniboss some minions/cannon fodder.
[/sblock]
Some options I've picked up from this thread so far ...
[sblock]
* let the players run the royal guardsmen, and it turns in to an all out assault on the miniboss (in my particular situation, that might have mixed results, some of the players are just really attached to their PCs and running other things is outside their interest -- the idea of running a temp npc for a session came up once before and it had some player disinterest since it wasn't their own pc which is how i know. But it is an option that i like none the less so i want to still consider it)
* let the royal guardsmen focus on the miniboss while the PCs focus on the cannon fodder
* let the royal guardsmen focus on the cannonfodder while the PCs focus on the miniboss
* have the miniboss wipe the floor with the guardsmen (because, honestly, the miniboss could do just that, though it might be close...) and let the PCs make the decision to stay or flee (after all, they were warned in character twice whenever it came up and now they get to see it for themselves)
* another option i considered was to simply have the method of relic-destruction fail. but, it would come off as major cheese since this is something they've been wanting to do since they got the thing at the start of the campaign.
[/sblock]
I may be forgetting some random relevant facts, but those are the main points that I can think of in response to the questions asked so far.
The suggestions have been great so far, thanks! If the above sparks any other ideas, by all means, feel free to share. I still have a couple weeks before the session itself.
Yes, I was being a little vague partially because 3 of my 5 players have a reasonable chance of seeing this thread (though they pretty much know most details, just not the details about the miniboss other than a general idea). And also, partially to spare everyone a long-winded story about the miniboss. But, in order to answer some of the questions that were brought up ....
My players (D,J,M,E,and K), stop reading just in case! I know you're grown-up enough not to try and let this affect your actions, but still, just stop reading.
Background
[sblock]
In very very basic terms, there is a powerful relic and trapped inside is the miniboss. While inside, the miniboss is tapping in to the relic's power and doing bad things.
The only way the PCs have found to destroy the relic would also free the miniboss trapped inside.
When they found the way to do this, I told them in game (by way of the NPC that gave the information) that "... it would be unleashing a very strong foe, the likes of which is unknown but power that they have not yet seen, as fearsome as some dragons of legend..." And, later, I told them out of game during a casual conversation that it is a very high difficulty creature that can kick their collective "rear ends" with but a gesture.
Thus, they are getting the king's men to come help them, hoping it will be enough.
[/sblock]
About the miniboss
[sblock]
The party is currently 5th level.
The miniboss (as originally conceptualized) is (I don't want to say the exact number) .... let's just say in the teens level). Generally, I have been okay with upping or downing a creature by a level or two from my original concept depending on the level or the party to keep things proportionally appropriate. However, deflating from "teens" to something for the 5th level party just seems like a huge deflate to me.
The miniboss is basically in the relic so he will pretty much 'be there' once the PCs go to it and do the thing
i will not have a hard time giving this miniboss some minions/cannon fodder.
[/sblock]
Some options I've picked up from this thread so far ...
[sblock]
* let the players run the royal guardsmen, and it turns in to an all out assault on the miniboss (in my particular situation, that might have mixed results, some of the players are just really attached to their PCs and running other things is outside their interest -- the idea of running a temp npc for a session came up once before and it had some player disinterest since it wasn't their own pc which is how i know. But it is an option that i like none the less so i want to still consider it)
* let the royal guardsmen focus on the miniboss while the PCs focus on the cannon fodder
* let the royal guardsmen focus on the cannonfodder while the PCs focus on the miniboss
* have the miniboss wipe the floor with the guardsmen (because, honestly, the miniboss could do just that, though it might be close...) and let the PCs make the decision to stay or flee (after all, they were warned in character twice whenever it came up and now they get to see it for themselves)
* another option i considered was to simply have the method of relic-destruction fail. but, it would come off as major cheese since this is something they've been wanting to do since they got the thing at the start of the campaign.
[/sblock]
I may be forgetting some random relevant facts, but those are the main points that I can think of in response to the questions asked so far.
The suggestions have been great so far, thanks! If the above sparks any other ideas, by all means, feel free to share. I still have a couple weeks before the session itself.
mach1.9pants
Hero
I am with this. As long as you did warn them.
Okay, I would definitely not deflate the boss under these circumstances. I also would have the PCs fight the boss; if there is cannon fodder, it should face off against the royal guardsmen, not the PCs. My first rule of DMing is that the PCs should always be the stars of the show.
Some ideas:
[sblock]When the PCs break the relic, there is a rush of howling, disembodied souls preceding the emergence of the miniboss. These souls attack the royal guardsmen and suck their life out in record time. The PCs have a chance to flee. If they don't, they fight the disembodied souls and can beat them back with an extreme effort. Again, they can flee at this point. If they still stick around, the miniboss himself emerges, opens up a can of whup-ass on the PCs, and then rips their souls out of their bodies. Now their bodies lie comatose where the relic was opened and their souls are being forced to serve in the miniboss's army; they have to figure out a way to slip their bonds and get back to their bodies before those bodies die.[/sblock]
[sblock]The miniboss has read his Sun Tzu. He knows the PCs are coming, but isn't sure how powerful they are, and doesn't want to fight them when they set the terms. So he creates a weaker simulacrum of himself and leaves it behind, with cannon fodder, to fight the PCs and the guardsmen, while the real miniboss makes his escape under cover of invisibility. The PCs can spot him with a really good Perception check, but he moves too fast for them to catch him. If they fail the Perception check, they don't spot the real miniboss and instead duke it out with the simulacrum; they can win without too much trouble, but drop a hint that their victory was a little too easy.[/sblock]
[sblock]To make it a straight-up fight, abstract the royal guardsmen to an extreme degree; basically, they deal 1dX damage to the miniboss per guardsman each round, and the miniboss's attacks kill 1dY guardsmen each round. Have the miniboss concentrate on the royal guardsmen first. Thus they serve to soften him up a bit and absorb his first few rounds of attacks, weakening him for the PCs to finish off - or not, as the case may be.[/sblock]
Some ideas:
[sblock]When the PCs break the relic, there is a rush of howling, disembodied souls preceding the emergence of the miniboss. These souls attack the royal guardsmen and suck their life out in record time. The PCs have a chance to flee. If they don't, they fight the disembodied souls and can beat them back with an extreme effort. Again, they can flee at this point. If they still stick around, the miniboss himself emerges, opens up a can of whup-ass on the PCs, and then rips their souls out of their bodies. Now their bodies lie comatose where the relic was opened and their souls are being forced to serve in the miniboss's army; they have to figure out a way to slip their bonds and get back to their bodies before those bodies die.[/sblock]
[sblock]The miniboss has read his Sun Tzu. He knows the PCs are coming, but isn't sure how powerful they are, and doesn't want to fight them when they set the terms. So he creates a weaker simulacrum of himself and leaves it behind, with cannon fodder, to fight the PCs and the guardsmen, while the real miniboss makes his escape under cover of invisibility. The PCs can spot him with a really good Perception check, but he moves too fast for them to catch him. If they fail the Perception check, they don't spot the real miniboss and instead duke it out with the simulacrum; they can win without too much trouble, but drop a hint that their victory was a little too easy.[/sblock]
[sblock]To make it a straight-up fight, abstract the royal guardsmen to an extreme degree; basically, they deal 1dX damage to the miniboss per guardsman each round, and the miniboss's attacks kill 1dY guardsmen each round. Have the miniboss concentrate on the royal guardsmen first. Thus they serve to soften him up a bit and absorb his first few rounds of attacks, weakening him for the PCs to finish off - or not, as the case may be.[/sblock]
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