Endgame spellcaster disparity

[Raduin711]

I think it is pretty much agreed that once you get to the last 5 levels or so arcane spellcasters tend to overwhelm the game. I have only taken one spellcaster to 20th level, who was an abjurer in our eberron campaign.

But I was thinking... what if you took 7th, 8th, and 9th level sor/wiz spells out of the game? Sorcerers and Wizards could still use the spell slots for metamagic. (perhaps even getting a free metamagic feat in place of the lost spell, or some other benefit)

Would this even things out? A friend of mine said this solution wouldn't work because it was "boring", and he is probably right. but would it work?

 

[Sadrik]

I was kind of considering a similar idea.
My idea was to basically make 7/8/9 epic spells 21st+
Then stretch out the casting of 1-6 level spells to 20th level. I wanted to make sure they had a similar absolute number of spells they could memorize. For instance if a 17th level wizard could memorize 30 spells normally they could still do that they would just be of lower levels.

1 for 1st
4 for 2nd
7 for 3rd
11 for 4th
14 for 5th
17 for 6th
21 for 7th
24 for 8th
27 for 9th

Anyway something along those lines.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It could work, but you have to make sure you don't use (or remember to edit) any critters that require the use of high-level spells to defeat.

You also have to make sure those critters don't have any powers or abilities based on those spells you're eliminating.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I like the extended progression. If it could only go to 25th, it would be a perfect fit for Arcana Evolved, or a kind of hybrid.

Maybe like this, for those purposes:

1 = 1st
2 = 4th
3 = 7th
4 = 10th
5 = 13th
6 = 16th
7 = 19th
8 = 22nd
9 = 25th

. . .? It's neat, if nothing else. But I also think it could work.

 

[Sadrik]

There also might be some absolutely necessary effects that are 7th plus level. On the opposite end you could send some of the more powerful save or suck spells up to 7th level+ Dominate, slay living, etc. As a neat consequence this actually makes the bard more powerful.

And yes creatures would need to be edited, or not. I have been on this kick as of late, conceptually at least, who cares what the CR is. If the players want to fight it the can... but they should know if they go after that dragon and they are 4th level... they might die. So running a module this might be a problematic HR but running a sandbox type game this won't cause any undo stress.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And yes creatures would need to be edited, or not. I have been on this kick as of late, conceptually at least, who cares what the CR is.

I'm not talking about CR- I'm talking about critters that are effectively immune to lower level spells than would exist under this regime.

For instance, you need certain 9th level spells to take down a Tarrasque, and if they're not available to the party, it doesn't matter what level they are, they simply can't win if the Tarrasque gets run unedited.

Similarly, if a creature has a special attack or power that mimics or is only defenseable by high level magic, making that magic unavailable to the PCs means a higher probability of a TPK.

 

[Sadrik]

I'm not talking about CR- I'm talking about critters that are effectively immune to lower level spells than would exist under this regime.

For instance, you need certain 9th level spells to take down a Tarrasque, and if they're not available to the party, it doesn't matter what level they are, they simply can't win if the Tarrasque gets run unedited.

Similarly, if a creature has a special attack or power that mimics or is only defenseable by high level magic, making that magic unavailable to the PCs means a higher probability of a TPK.

Ok, this is fair but still why is it necessary? It will make a tarrasque a lot more dangerous. Besides they will have to go on a quest to find that scroll with a wish spell on it now. No worries, sandbox baby, make the tarrasque a creature attacking part of the world at a low level and make that the impetus of the campaign. The only thing is you have to introduce the tarrasque at a low enough level where they don't become fool hardy. This could be a very good plot thread...

But I do get your point there are some spells and monsters that could do with some modifications. Globe of invulnerability could live with a little change or a level bump.

With this alteration I might also give the d4 classes d6 without any compunction or twitch.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ok, this is fair but still why is it necessary? It will make a tarrasque a lot more dangerous.

Try "unbeatable."

Besides they will have to go on a quest to find that scroll with a wish spell on it now.

That isn't what is implied in the initial post: the OP isn't saying that upper level spells aren't available to PCs at the beginning, he's saying that those spells don't exist at all. IOW, there isn't a "Wish" scroll out there since there is no "Wish" spell anywhere in the campaign.

 

[Sadrik]

That isn't what is implied in the initial post: the OP isn't saying that upper level spells aren't available to PCs at the beginning, he's saying that those spells don't exist at all. IOW, there isn't a "Wish" scroll out there since there is no "Wish" spell anywhere in the campaign.

Oh I thought you were replying to my concept but yes simply removing those spells would in that case modify or remove some monsters, tarrasque being (only?) one of them.

 

[Kask]

Sounds workable, just watch out for monsters that that would require spells of those levels to deal with.