Energy Drain

[F700]

Maybe someone's already said this as I didn't read every page - sorry just saw this thread. I did though want to get my idea out.

1. Undead drain static x.p. You never lose a level. You just take longer to gain the next level. Also by being static, wights are fearsome to lower level PCs and not as fearsome to higher levels. Still a little bit fearsome though.

2. Undead apply a permanent -X on all rolls. This can be removed by restoration which should not be too hard to get but it should cost money. At higher levels, someone should be able to cast restoration.

Direct xp loss was my first inclination, I suggested something along the lines of 10d10 per hit a few pages back. I like it not just because it's quick and simple to track, but also because it creates a new damage type.

Plus, even with xp loss putting a character down a level, they wouldn't have to neccesarily drop in actual levels so they wouldn't have to recalculate eveything on their sheet.

 

[Stalker0]

I think this is an area we can add a little modularity.

The core idea of losing HD seems to have appeal, so lets keep that. The key then is how quickly they come back.

1) Normal - lost HD are recovered at normal rate.
2) Scary - lost HD are recovered at 1/2 normal rate.
3) Terrifying - lost HD are recovered 1/week.
4) Panicking - lost HD are not recovered until you level.

For me, having my healing basically knocked out is pretty scary.

 

[F700]

With one of Nexts main design goals being "old school feel", I have to say, HD loss just doesn't feel like energy drain to me. My feeling is energy drain should endanger character levels.

I know a lot of people feel it's harsh, but it's more forgiving than save or die mechanics, and not irreversible.

HD loss seems like it's a little too soft, and I'm sure there's going to be more than 1 monster/effect that will use hd loss. I'd like to see energy drain remain rare yet devastating.

 

[Emerikol]

The nice thing about energy drain is that it can be defined ten different ways for ten different groups. Just put energy drain on the monster description. Then have a template for each type of energy drain that adds xp to the monster based on which one you pick. If you don't like energy drain then don't use it at all and just add no xp. The base xp is without energy drain being anything.

 

[the Jester]

IWhen a creature with Energy Drain hits, it does the indicated damage, and in addition the victim loses one Hit Die. (Or more, depending on the creature.) The victim's largest hit dice are lost first....

...even if it has already been spent.

Roll the drained Hit Di(c)e. The victim loses that many hit points, and the draining creature heals by half that amount. The victim takes disadvantage on attacks and checks in the next round.

Excellent. The disadvantage makes energy drain terrifying. Perhaps it should be on attacks, checks, and saves?

If a character is Energy Drained past the number of hit dice that it has, it immediately falls unconscious.

High-Lethality Option: The creature dies instead.

Any character that has lost hit dice from or been rendered unconscious by Energy Drain receives the Drained condition. Drained characters need to make a Con save vs. DC 10 (?) to regain hit dice, and receive only half the usual amount for the campaign. The Drained condition goes away when all hit dice are recovered.

I like this version an awful lot.

Mechanics should always take a backseat to storytelling. Always!

...for some playstyles.

 

[CM]

I'd rather keep it simple. I don't like long-term bookkeeping or permanent xp loss.

Make "Drained" a condition with the following effects:

• You have disadvantage on attack and checks
• Your speed is reduced by half
• You receive half the normal benefit from healing effects

Creatures that apply it should require either a saving throw after a hit to avoid the condition, or it should require two consecutive hits or something similar, so that not every attack automatically inflicts the condition. It should be fairly rare too, not something slapped on everything with the "undead" tag.

The condition can be removed after a full rest or from a restoration type effect. (Although this can be modified at the DM's option)

Yes, it sets up a death spiral, but I think energy-draining undead are one of the few cases where it is appropriate.

 

[Nine Hands]

Something I just thought of, especially with all the talk about draining Hit Dice.

The idea that the Hit Dice go to healing the Wight is neat.

The idea of an energy drained condition has merit.

How about, when you drain a Hit Die and the Wight rolls maximum on the die, it also inflicts energy drain.

This means that the tougher a character is, the harder it is to have this condition imposed on you. You don't have to worry about it *always* happening, because its based on the necessity of rolling max on the Hit Die.

Lastly, you can change up the effects. One type of Undead might make you paralyzed, another might make you frightened, another might weaken you (needs a new condition for that).

That being said, I am totally behind a monster that eats healing surges (hit dice). Its a loss of long term viability but not negative levelsl or something more permanent.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, hit dice drain seems cool. And when they are lost permanently, it is very very frightening.

 

[nightwalker450]

Level drain is difficult due to rewriting characters. And when you're rolling for hit points its even more of a pain.

Permanent loss of stats or effects would be alright as long as the game recognizes it. Our flatter math helps this, loosing a point or two isn't going to put you too far off. Also it would be best if the loss were temporary for a period of time, then became permanent (with actual effect not happening until permanency). This way there's no mass adjustments needed mid-combat, and you can do it between sessions or during a lull in the action. Also doing it this way prevents a death spiral, where each consecutive one makes it less likely for you to survive the encounter.

I really liked the idea of "burning the candle at both ends", by reducing how far negative a person could go.

 

[The Shadow]

Wow, there are so many cool ideas popping up in this thread I'm having trouble processing them all! If it weren't for the fact that I'd like to keep the number of subsystems down, maybe we could indeed use more than one kind of Energy Drain.

I do have to say that I simply can't stomach any kind of draining of experience or levels, though. I really don't see how that models having your life-energy sucked out, for one; and for another, not all of us even use XP. Plus losing levels causes all sorts of headaches that I'd just as soon not get into.

It's not that it's too harsh, it's just simultaneously annoying to use at the table, and hard to see the rationale for, at least for me.

Make "Drained" a condition with the following effects:
You have disadvantage on attack and checks
Your speed is reduced by half
You receive half the normal benefit from healing effects

Hmm, I like the reduction of healing. I think I might add that to my own "Drained" condition.

...even if it has already been spent.

Hm? I've been thinking of this differently. Take a 3rd level fighter with Survivor. He has 5 hit dice, 3d10 and 2d8. And let's say for the sake of argument that he's spent two of his d10's, so he has 1d10 and 2d8 left.

I was thinking that when the wight drains him, he loses his last d10 first, then his d8's. But you're saying he could be drained of hit dice he doesn't have any more? I'm not sure of the rationale.

Of course, my way makes a wight even more scary near the end of the day, when you've lost most of your hit dice. Even a high-level fighter could go down quickly!

Excellent. The disadvantage makes energy drain terrifying. Perhaps it should be on attacks, checks, and saves?

Possibly, though my gut tells me that might be a little TOO harsh. Still, when it comes to undead, I'd prefer to err on the side of harsh.

High-Lethality Option: The creature dies instead.

Yep. I was afraid I'd get lynched if I tried to make that the default, though.

I like this version an awful lot.

My thinking on the Drained condition is evolving as I read people's posts.

I'm now thinking that you don't receive the Drained condition until you've been drained below half your hit dice, or have fallen unconscious. Once you get it, though, you suffer the following:

* You take disadvantage on attacks, checks, and saves. (This models being 'lower level', in a sense.)
* You get only half the usual effect of magical healing.
* You must make a Con check vs. DC 10 to regain hit dice. If you succeed, you still only get half the normal amount.
* The condition lasts until you've regained all your hit dice. (Or Restoration, etc.)

Losing hit dice would still impose disadvantage for one round afterward, though, even if you don't become Drained. Sound good?