D&D 5E Enhancing "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" (Practical stuff to try at your table!)

[aramis erak]

This is very subjective. Myself, and the other players in my group, all loved this encounter. There was a dissenting player who didn't like it, and he also didn't like any other encounter that wasn't obviously balanced.

I'd like to add another comment to nay-sayers: please write your criticism in a different thread, as OP is clearly requesting positive commentary.

I found that a particularly fun encounter to run... But I also rolled poorly, and had the dragon not engage until his breath recharged... which it didn't. So they chased out to where they could hit him, and used thaumaturgy to taunt him closer...

 

[GlobeOfDankness]

a list of my changes:

1. Players can make magic items fairly easily. Toward the end of Hoard and continuing into Rise, I've been allowing my players to make magic items while in waterdeep. I use a modified version of the crafting rules that allows Gems to be used for the material cost of making the item. The value of any gems used is also subtracted from the crafting time down to 10% of its original length. Rare an Very Rare items require a special recipe to create which is my way of relocating them to DM approval.

2.Orcaheart is a magic item. I had Bonecarver give them an enchanted hunting horn which, when blown, would summon the astral spirit of the hunter the party fights when the arrive. His HP is a weekly resource and he can be outfitted with better gear. He's basically like guenwhyvar from the drizzt books.

3. I replaced Rezmir with a new Wyrmspeaker of my own creation. Karavakos from the 4e Pyramid of Shadows module. I let the party kill Rezmir as she was trying to escape the icecastle and they sold her mask to an antiquities dealer in Waterdeep in exchange for a Robe of the Archmage.

4. I still grant XP from fights. Even though I still use the adventures' rule on milestones, I also have a ton of random encounters that I throw in here and there that will eventually add up to a bonus level for characters who've survived a long time. This combined with my Lethal DMing style makes for a good reward for seniority.

 

[KarinsDad]

You know the whole argument that going into the town with a dragon flying over it is railroading it is really old at this point. I would like to point out once and for all(ok wishful thinking) that every and I mean EVERY adventure railroads you into it, for every module ever written. If people want to argue how stupid adventurers have to be to go into a town with a dragon then it should be equally stupid to think you can go into an enemy dungeon/cave/castle/anythingelseyoucanpossiblyimagine and kill all the enemies inside when you are outnumbered 20:1 or worse. You're hero's, hero's fight against impossible odds and persevere or they fight against impossible odds and fall. That's what makes them hero's. Let's go really old school(I mean really old) David and Goliath. Man David was such a moron to fight against a giant of a man that had never lost and with a sling no less! What an idiot. Let's go with story that has some actual historical fact to it... Battle of Thermopylae. Roughly 7000 Greek soldiers against somewhere between 100 and 250 thousand Persian soldiers and they stood strong. Knowing they were being flanked on the final day Leonidas sent the bulk of the soldiers home leaving him with around 1500-2000 soldiers to hold the pass and prevent the entire force from being slaughtered.

I could go on with examples for quite a while from both fiction and history, the point is that to be a hero and be immortalized you have to stand up and take a grasp of your destiny. At the start of Greenest you can either go into the town and show you are the hero or you can walk away and find another adventure where you will still be facing mathematically impossible odds and just keep on walking till you find something else you enjoy. I hear Connect 4 and Candy Land are lovely games.

Err, no.

First off, not all PCs are heroes.

Second, this POV assumes PC knowledge (that the dragon will not just kill the PCs on sight). It's one thing to go into a dangerous area. It's another to go to a suicidal area for no known gain. Your examples here have potential gains.

You are entitled to your opinion, but if the argument that going into the town with a dragon flying over it is railroading is getting old at this point, so is the flawed opinion that doing so is heroic.

 

[Taronkov]

Err, no.

First off, not all PCs are heroes.

Second, this POV assumes PC knowledge (that the dragon will not just kill the PCs on sight). It's one thing to go into a dangerous area. It's another to go to a suicidal area for no known gain. Your examples here have potential gains.

You are entitled to your opinion, but if the argument that going into the town with a dragon flying over it is railroading is getting old at this point, so is the flawed opinion that doing so is heroic.

Ok I'm just going to go out there and post a little quote I found...

"Everything a player needs to create heroic characters for the world's greatest roleplaying game"

So I'm going to emphasize where it says HEROIC characters there. Also for the record this was taken from the cover of the PHB, the book that you know... defines the edition. And really unless you are playing an evil character you are always going to be a hero. I mean I can't think of to many people that would be out adventuring that aren't hero's or are looking to become hero's. Unless maybe you play a game about being a farmer and maybe fending off the occasional raid. Otherwise you will always, always in any game I've ever played, ran, seen, or heard of end up going out and killing monsters that no normal, non-heroic person would ever conceive of doing. Also how does it require PC knowledge? Why should you assume the dragon won't kill you? I sure assumed it would kill me if I messed with it. So you know what I did? I didn't mess with it. We got people under cover and kept them away from the dragon.

And how is there no potential gain? So the start of the adventure you're somewhere, somewhere around Greenest or at the very least heading through it. Unless you are just a wandering bunch of evil marauders(why are you even looking at this adventure you evil, non heroic marauder you) then there is a good chance you have a vested interest in some sort of capacity, to find out why there is an evil force burning villages to the ground, looting them for everything they're worth and has a dragon to back them up.

And finally your point about it being suicidal... You don't know about dragons or at least without a proper background your character doesn't, seems to me it would be out of game knowledge to think you have no chance against a dragon. Why can't the town militia, with some proper organization, drive it off? Maybe all they need is the help of some HEROIC adventurers to come along and get them organized(see what I did right there?).

We all get it, you had a terrible experience with Greenest in Flames and don't get me wrong it has flaws. That said, it's not a bad adventure by any means necessary. Should it have been the first published adventure? Probably not, it has way to much going on for trying to get new people into the game that don't have prior experience. Especially since it was written before all the rules were finalized. But if it came out now, after people have had time to learn the system, after maybe a slightly less world shaking event to get people to learn the system, I think you would find that most people's complaints would disappear.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ok I'm just going to go out there and post a little quote I found...

"Everything a player needs to create heroic characters for the world's greatest roleplaying game"

So does this mean that the game system cannot be used to create non-heroic PCs?

So I'm going to emphasize where it says HEROIC characters there. Also for the record this was taken from the cover of the PHB, the book that you know... defines the edition. And really unless you are playing an evil character you are always going to be a hero.

Last I saw, evil (and even neutral) are allowed PC sub-alignments in the PHB.

I mean I can't think of to many people that would be out adventuring that aren't hero's or are looking to become hero's. Unless maybe you play a game about being a farmer and maybe fending off the occasional raid. Otherwise you will always, always in any game I've ever played, ran, seen, or heard of end up going out and killing monsters that no normal, non-heroic person would ever conceive of doing. Also how does it require PC knowledge? Why should you assume the dragon won't kill you? I sure assumed it would kill me if I messed with it. So you know what I did? I didn't mess with it. We got people under cover and kept them away from the dragon.

And how is there no potential gain? So the start of the adventure you're somewhere, somewhere around Greenest or at the very least heading through it. Unless you are just a wandering bunch of evil marauders(why are you even looking at this adventure you evil, non heroic marauder you) then there is a good chance you have a vested interest in some sort of capacity, to find out why there is an evil force burning villages to the ground, looting them for everything they're worth and has a dragon to back them up.

At the distance that the dragon is described, PCs do not necessarily know what is going on other than a dragon attacking and a village burning. Making any assumptions that there is an invading army, that there are villagers alive, or any of that is based on what the DM at a given table tells the players, and the backgrounds / motivations of the PCs. There is not necessarily a definitive potential gain. There might be, but for those players who roleplay their PC's backgrounds and alignments (as opposed to assuming that the DM will not just kill them in the first day of adventuring) and the DM plays up how powerful a dragon might be (and/or adds in the fact that an army is in the village), the gain is not so clear.

And finally your point about it being suicidal... You don't know about dragons or at least without a proper background your character doesn't, seems to me it would be out of game knowledge to think you have no chance against a dragon.

I'll point you to the cover of the PHB where it states "Dungeons and Dragons". Good for the goose, ...

Alternatively, one can read the following post to really get an idea why this is suicidal:

mig

Why can't the town militia, with some proper organization, drive it off? Maybe all they need is the help of some HEROIC adventurers to come along and get them organized(see what I did right there?).

Yup. You made an assumption as to the (unknown) existence and living state of a town militia and compared it to the (known) existence and living state of a dragon.

We all get it, you had a terrible experience with Greenest in Flames and don't get me wrong it has flaws. That said, it's not a bad adventure by any means necessary. Should it have been the first published adventure? Probably not, it has way to much going on for trying to get new people into the game that don't have prior experience. Especially since it was written before all the rules were finalized. But if it came out now, after people have had time to learn the system, after maybe a slightly less world shaking event to get people to learn the system, I think you would find that most people's complaints would disappear.

Another assumption? This concept that the state of the rules has anything to do with this is kind of funny. I have no problem with some minor nit rules issues or even grammatical mistakes. My issue is with the flat out assumptions of what PCs would do. It's not railroading, it's tying the PCs to the tracks. Sorry, but it really is that bad and there are a lot of people who think so. I opine that the reason some players even like it is because of the great job their DMs did rescuing it (e.g. one DM here in this thread state that he started the PCs in Greenest which totally changes a major motivation flaw for some PCs).

Face it. Some people have higher expectation bars when it comes to modules that they fork money over for than other people, especially for the flagship adventure of a brand new edition.

 

[Prism]

So does this mean that the game system cannot be used to create non-heroic PCs?

Last I saw, evil (and even neutral) are allowed PC sub-alignments in the PHB.

I guess part of the problem was your group played this adventure very early on before much had been discussed. With hindsight or maybe a full reading of the module and all the online discussion about it, it becomes apparent that its clearly an adventure for heroic characters. Now maybe that's a failing of the adventure but it is what it is

My issue is with the flat out assumptions of what PCs would do. It's not railroading, it's tying the PCs to the tracks. Sorry, but it really is that bad and there are a lot of people who think so.

I don't see this as railroading (other parts of the adventure I do). This scene sets the stall for the mood of the whole adventure. If your party doesn't think risking their lives to have a possibly slim chance of saving a few others then the whole module is probably not going to be for them. I would say its a make or break moment to if you actually play the module. Of course is shouldn't really be that since only heroic characters should apply but I don't think that that is made obvious enough.

I opine that the reason some players even like it is because of the great job their DMs did rescuing it (e.g. one DM here in this thread state that he started the PCs in Greenest which totally changes a major motivation flaw for some PCs).

I agree that an alternate beginning should have been included as an option but I do think the first scene loses its dramatic opening when you remove the dragon

 

[jayoungr]

As the OP, may I politely request that if you bring up things in the adventure that you think don't work, you also offer a potential solution, ideally something you've actually done at your table? As I said in post 17 above, I would like this thread to be a grab-bag of suggestions to give people running the adventure ideas and inspiration, rather than a place to analyze and discuss flaws in the adventure as written. There are plenty of threads already open--such as, for example, this one--where people can discuss why certain things about the adventure are or are not problems.

Thanks!

3. I replaced Rezmir with a new Wyrmspeaker of my own creation. Karavakos from the 4e Pyramid of Shadows module. I let the party kill Rezmir as she was trying to escape the icecastle and they sold her mask to an antiquities dealer in Waterdeep in exchange for a Robe of the Archmage.

Thanks for posting your tweaks! I'm curious, do you have any plans for Rezmir's dragon mask to reappear? It seems like the cult might easily get wind of it being at the antique shop and get their hands on it again.

 

[Kaychsea]

Personally I wouldn't worry about getting your group into Greenest. I'd worry a bit if they ran in to attack the dragon, but of three groups two got stuck in to help where they could. The third sat on a nearby hill and watched until the cultists left but they seem to be treating it as an exercise in masochism. They are in chapter 4 and even with three sidequests to get them some XP they've just hit second level.
I'd second having material not in the book to hand, prepare cards for each encounter (including randoms, they will always come in handy).
Pay attention to matching the various chapters (they are almost all of different styles) to the kind of play that your group enjoys, you can't do much about the actual scenes but can leverage the stuff they do enjoy.

 

[Blackwarder]

Aaaaaand the thread goes down the crapper again, I feel sorry for the OP, he heroicly tried to ask some questions away from the negative threads and the negative posters just relocated... Sad realy.

Warder

 

[Tommy Brownell]

As the OP, may I politely request that if you bring up things in the adventure that you think don't work, you also offer a potential solution, ideally something you've actually done at your table? As I said in post 17 above, I would like this thread to be a grab-bag of suggestions to give people running the adventure ideas and inspiration, rather than a place to analyze and discuss flaws in the adventure as written. There are plenty of threads already open--such as, for example, this one--where people can discuss why certain things about the adventure are or are not problems.

Thanks!


Thanks for posting your tweaks! I'm curious, do you have any plans for Rezmir's dragon mask to reappear? It seems like the cult might easily get wind of it being at the antique shop and get their hands on it again.

Something like that should very much happen. Tiamat gave Severin visions of the masks to get them started...I would say she could easily nudge him back in the direction of acquiring the mask again.

Also, if word goes wide that the group had it and sold it, I would totally hold that against them in the Council of Waterdeep, if/when you start The Rise of Tiamat.