Enhancing the Knockdown Feat

[Bassar]

Since the Knockdown Feat is a manifestation of sheer physical force I don't think that your opponent should have the ability to make a Trip attack against you if your Trip attack fails.

Think about it.

You are essentially knocking someone off their feet because you are exceptionally strong (STR 15+) and
dealt a powerful blow (10+ points of damage).

And not because you were a particularly clever fighter who managed to sweep someone's legs out from under them (normal Trip attack).

Essentially, the only advantage that Knockdown gives you over Improved Trip is that you can attack before your trip attack so if your opponent happens to trip you you will have already done damage.

Unless someone want to argue that a person with the Knockdown Feat can then make a free attack against the opponent he just tripped, this slight advantage doesn't make it seem worth it.

I would say that those with Knockdown (namely my character) can make the Trip attack without provoking a counter-attack should the Trip fail.



Any opinions on this?

 

[hong]

Knockdown is a silly feat anyway. 10 points of damage may be mortal to a 1st level character, but it's barely a scratch to a 10th level one. Furthermore, a high-level melee fighter will find it absurdly easy to inflict 10+ points of damage even with a dagger, making the feat overpowered at those levels. And finally, the idea that you should have to take a feat to impose what should be an automatic result of a staggering blow on an enemy is dumb. What, since a dragon doesn't have Knockdown, that means when it swipes you with its claw for 20 points of damage, you aren't knocked around?

Feh. Feh, I say.

 

[Bassar]

Granted, it is a silly feat.

But so are many feats.

In fact, it's a silly game when you can't knock people off their feet in without resorting to Tripping tactics?

Officially, that is.

I recall, 2ed had some type of knockdown die roll.

How do you handle it?

 

[SableWyvern]

Crothian (at least, I'm pretty sure it was he) and I discussed this in House Rules (which is where this thread should be, BTW).

As I recall, he upped the damage to 20 and otherwise left the feat unchanged.

I am using the following House Rule:

Knockdown works standard from 10 to 14 hp damage.
No counter on a failed trip for damage 15+

The thing to keep in mind is that 10hp damage isn't necessarily hard to do. Consider a 1st level orc with 20Str and a greatsword: 2d6+7 damage. If you make the feat more usefull, it can quickly become overpowering, in the hands of the right (wrong) PC.

 

[hong]

If I wanted to make knockdown/back a part of the rules, I'd do it like this.

Any melee hit that deals 10 points of damage _and_ more than 20% of the defender's max hp has the chance of knocking down the defender. Make a trip attempt as a free attack. If the trip is unsuccessful, the defender cannot trip you back in turn. You can only knock down an opponent who is the same size as you or smaller.

If you have Improved Trip, you do not gain a free melee attack after a trip that is the result of a knockdown.

Knockdown feat:

Prereqs: Str 15+, BAB 3+

Benefit: You are treated as if one size larger for the purposes of knocking down opponents (but not for defending against knockdown attempts).

That's IF I wanted to make knockdown a part of the rules. This makes melee combat much deadlier, especially against big monsters. It could be argued that there are already enough disincentives for getting into melee (what with improved grab, swallow whole, energy drain, ability drain, rend, etc, etc) that another one isn't needed.

 

[Rashak Mani]

The feat doesnt say 10+ damage = Enemy is tripped auto... so it is a trip attempt anyway. Doesnt describe as the blow itself knocking him down.

I visualize it more as you gave the foe a good blow and he loses balance for a moment... you get a chance to then Knock him down. Should you fail he get a chance to trip you back just like the Impr Trip feat.

 

[Archer]

I understand the official interpretation to be that knockdown works just like the trip special ability in the monster manual with a conditional of doing at least 10 pts of damage. If it was an actual trip attack then you would get the free attack from improved trip. The feat doesn't even make sense if you read it any other way.

 

[Romotre]

First of all, trip doesn't use base attack for anything so its more random (read: doesn't happen always for powerful characters). to balance it at high levels, i all the extreme tumbling rules. stand up from prone as a free action (kip up) with a tumble DC 35 i think. most of the enemies they fight are enemy ninja (can kip up easily) or monsters (larges+more legs=harder to trip).

 

[kramis]

knockdown is not tripping

It's funny how often the same issues come up. If any of you care, the official ruling and intent of the knockdown feat has nothing to do with making an actual "trip attack", you only use the trip attack mechanics.

That is to say, you are not making a trip attack, there is no counter trip possibility, improved trip has no effect, etc. You are simply using the same mechanics as a trip attack to determine if they fall down since it was simpler to do it that way.

Those are the official rules, like them or not. Feel free to hate them and modifiy them to suit your own needs (we add BAB to all trip attacks in our campaign, so far it's been ok).

If you want to house rule an always on knockdown style you should base it on a percentage of HP, not a set number, and there should of course be bonuses for size, stability, etc. That's my feeling about it anyway.

 

[Darklone]

In the new Players Guide there's a Knock Prone feat. It's like this: If you score a critical hit on someone, you trip him as a free action. He can save with a Fort save against 10+ damage.

That one is lots nicer IMHO. I kicked Knockdown.