Entering a Zone

[fuzzlewump]

A zone is not terrain, however.

I agree with this sentiment, otherwise other strange things could be considered hindering terrain, such as a Kruthik's damage aura, or next to a Stormwarden Ranger.

 

[robsenworldaccount]

Hindering Terrain

Ya know, I had just this concern a long time ago.

So much so that I called up WotC and asked them their opinion (the lively hood of my wizard depended on it).

They succinctly told me wizard created powers were "Not" hindering terrain.

Just think about it:

If it was; how many times would the DM have to roll (just for a wizard) saving throws for "hindering terrain"?

Answer: Too Many

Not to mention the prone condition may well be more damaging in some situations than the zone itself.

Keep blasting wizards. (you know not as well as a sorcerer but meh)

 

[LittleFuzzy]

By RAW. the creature has to be moving, whether of its own voalition or by forced movement. There has been a ruling that a zone moving over a creature does not immediately cause damage, though the creature will, of course, subsequently have to deal with any "if you start your turn in the zone" consequences. That may just have been Customer Service, but it is tecnically a ruling and it makes sense. I can't remember if the zig-zag maneuver was ruled on at the same time or not, but many DMs have houseruled it out anyway. It climbs to some truly ridiculous numbers.

 

[FrozenChrono]

A zone is not terrain, however.

Hindering terrain is defined on page 61 of DMG as "Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight." with the examples "Pits, deep water, lava, fire."

I would say a wall of fire (that does automatic damage when entered) qualifies by the above definition.

robsenworldaccount may be right, but wizards call center has been known to say one thing, then have WOTC post something on the Q&A section of the website that's completely different.

I agree that this might not be the best way to run a game, so if you think your way is better then run away. (um, not literally though)

 

[keterys]

WotC has consistently answered that spell zones are not hindering terrain. People are not so consistent about how they play it, though.

 

[Goumindong]

WotC has consistently answered that spell zones are not hindering terrain. People are not so consistent about how they play it, though.

And custserv has been consistently wrong on the issue. If spell zones that meet the definition of hindering terrain are not hindering terrain, then nothing can ever be hindering terrain.[since there is no exception listed in spell zones, or in the terrain rules that would exclude them from that definition, and since they often meet all the other required definitions, them not being hindering terrain must mean that nothing can meet those definitions]

 

[keterys]

If spell zones that meet the definition of hindering terrain are not hindering terrain, then nothing can ever be hindering terrain.[since there is no exception listed in spell zones, or in the terrain rules that would exclude them from that definition, and since they often meet all the other required definitions, them not being hindering terrain must mean that nothing can meet those definitions]

That doesn't follow, unfortunately. Hindering terrain is something defined in the DMG that might be a game aspect only used by the DM, such that players don't have to use it.

It might have all of the qualities of hindering terrain without actually being terrain at all, for instance.

It would be tremendously useful for WotC to officially and completely clarify this, rather than this nebulous state where your response only validates my statement: 'People are not so consistent about how they play it, though'

 

[Goumindong]

The DMG is rules for adjudication, just like the forced movement rules are in the DMG and the players make use of them for all occasions. It works the same with terrain, terrain is not an exception, if it were it would be mentioned as such. Saying "The DM doesn't have to use these rules" does not make the rules any less rules. The powers meet the definitions of hindering terrain, such, they are hindering terrain. Claiming DM fiat is fine, but only if you're claiming it as a departure from the RAW, not if you're claiming it as a support for RAW.

 

[Caliban]

The DMG is rules for adjudication, just like the forced movement rules are in the DMG and the players make use of them for all occasions. It works the same with terrain, terrain is not an exception, if it were it would be mentioned as such. Saying "The DM doesn't have to use these rules" does not make the rules any less rules. The powers meet the definitions of hindering terrain, such, they are hindering terrain. Claiming DM fiat is fine, but only if you're claiming it as a departure from the RAW, not if you're claiming it as a support for RAW.

Not claiming "DM Fiat", just claiming that we are running it the correct way, with support from the WOTC.

I have also asked CustServ about this, and have received the same response: Temporary damage zones are not Hindering Terrain.

If player created effects were meant to be Hindering Terrain, it would have been mentioned in the PHB, under the forced movement rules or in the section on how powers work.

Since it's not, it's not something players have to worry about in regards to their powers (just the save for being sent of the edge of a drop).

Your reading of the rules is not RAW, it's just your interpretation of the RAW. Other people have read the same rules, and have a different interpretation of what the RAW is in this case. WOTC has confirmed that reading of the rules, so that is what I use.

 

[Goumindong]

Not claiming "DM Fiat", just claiming that we are running it the correct way, with support from the WOTC.

That is exactly what Ketyers was saying. He was saying that terrain was entirely at the DM's digression. This is not a rule that can stand in any interpretation by RAW

If player created effects were meant to be Hindering Terrain, it would have been mentioned in the PHB, under the forced movement rules or in the section on how powers work.

You see, it is. The general rule for hindering terrain covers all instances that meet its definition, by RAW there is no exception unless that exception is explicit. There is no part of the definition that does not cover temporary damage zones and there is no explicit removal of those temporary damage zones from the definition of hindering terrain.

Specific > General, the general rule is a framework that encompasses the entire system as much as possible. The general rule is that "things that meet the definition are hindering terrain". And since there is no specific exemption to that rule, the general rule stands.

For instance, if i have a power that says "Hit: Deals 1d10 damage", then in all instances that the power hits you deal 1d10 damage. You do not get to say "you don't deal damage to this target by RAW" unless that target has a specific exemption from the general rule that says it takes damage.

We have the general rule, that things that meet the hindering terrain definition are hindering terrain, and we have the general rules for push/slide/pull powers that says an enemy is entitled to a save to fall prone if he is going to be pushed into an area that is hindering terrain. So then all we have to ask is whether or not they meet the definition[and they pretty much invariably do] and since they do, the general rule is in effect until there is a specific rule that says otherwise.