Epic Handbook just a little bit unreasonable?

[|]emonix]

All in all, i really have a distaste for players clinging to walls or stuff like that... they have spells to do that, that is what makes mages/clerics good. not obveously its not gona work like that just becuase ur lvl 21, but honestly is it really ever gona be used then

i agree that the book will have its value in the sense that it will blow away any level caps that were placed on a PC, however, super powerful stuff that i may never use in my life is what this book sounds to be.

i do agree with whoever said that this book might just be fot those who want to be really powerful and quickely too. ehh there are enough cheap things in new books in my opinion as it is.

im still wondering how they are going to make the gods, i know they r gona be massive epic level chars, but there is still hope that they rnt level 45 or 69... and i do mainly only care about the demon/devil gods as well, witch bad for me cus they r most likely to be astoundingly dificult

i plan to just use the lower levels, maybe like 24 give or take, im sure there will be an urge with my players to just want to make epic chars right off the bat, but if it takes a long time to play (it might) and slows game time gerastically, forget it.

sadly i have already preordered a copy of this book cus im a wimp

 

[Lendyl]

i don't see how it is munchkinism?

perhaps those who fear the monty haulism are not in well balanced campaigns. i'm looking forward to this book to allow characters to try and become gods (possible in my world), to go to other planes and meet cool and interesting tieflings and kill them (plane travel in my world isn't likely to even start til past 15th level).

as for the examples given. swimming up a water fall. am i the only one who has envisioned an underwater campaign where the party are all merfolk and you can use all those cool underwater monsters. i would think a merfolk swimming up a waterfall at 21st level as hardly munchkinism.

super jump. we all saw crouching tiger hidden dragon. in that style of campaign it works.

spiderman wall walking. for a thief to need to be over 20th level to duplicate a low level mage spell is a fair trade off.

keep in mind all the rules are just suggestions (core books included -- i have no vorpal weapons or gnomes in my world [i'm not sure which i find scarier]). if the rule helps your campaign use it if not don't.

my two cents

 

[ColonelHardisson]

It's better to have the rules available than to not have them. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em. Or don't buy the book in the first place. It's that simple. Many of us want this book badly. I want it partly because it looks to do a couple of things. First, to provide a way to play really powerful characters like some of those from myth and legend - isn't the "swimming up waterfalls" thing from Celtic mythology? Second, it seems this book may well be the portal to supehero d20 rules. I've never been big on supers rpgs, but I like the fact that they will be provided for (but, I also understand that Morrus is working on just such a project also).

Everyone plays differently. Heck, even an individual changes styles throughout time. In the 20+ years I've played, I've been in truly Monty Haul campaigns, and run campaigns where it took 6 months for everyone to get their PCs to 5th-6th level. The main thing is everyone had fun. I don't give a damn whether someone else decides to lord it over me if I want to try high-level gaming - I'll play the way I want to play, and you should, too. If you want a campaign where everyone plays 1st level Commoners with 1 hit point, or one where the PCs are beings so powerful they can trash entire pantheons, more power to you. I'm glad WotC - or anyone, for that matter - is trying to accomodate all styles of play. Let's not be myopic; this hobby is all about imagination and limitless possibilities. Everyone playing all one way is boring and unimaginative. Pick and choose what you like, and recognize that your way of gaming isn't the only way.

 

[Doomsdaisy]

If the book is nothing more than a collection of new feats, high DC skill uses, and uber-spells, then I really don't want it.

What I would really want is a book that deals a lot with how high level characters fit into a game world, not just high-level dungeon crawling abilities.

What kind of political influence can a powerful character get? Do clerics and wizards get powerful enough to become minor dieties? Can fighters move from focusing on hand to hand combat to lead armies without dumping lots of points into diplomacy?

If the book is simply a collection of bigger feats, bigger skills, bigger spells, and bigger monsters, it will truly suck. But if it can give some suggestions on what to DO with high level characters, then it may be worth while.

 

[LostSoul]

[BRather, it's just loose, high-powered entertainment where the characters are nearly the best at what they do, so their villains are equally powerful if not moreso.[/B]

Question: Is a rules heavy d20 system game (like D&D's combat and spell mechanics) the proper system to run a high-powered, fast and loose, epic level game?

I'd say no... but others may have different tastes.

 

[Crothian]

It has been said that there will be a section or chapter or some portion of the book devoted to how to run this type of game and how to fit it into your world.

 

[Warchild]

Let's see. Just off the top of my head, let me stat her:

Quillathe Nailo:
Fighter 5: Originally a warrior, focusing in an exotic dueling style.
Lasher 10/Duelist 10: She eventually mastered this style after a few lifetimes, wieilding rapier and whip-dagger.
Assassin 4: Working briefly as an assassin (I let them be good, if they have good intentions) for an order devoted to freeing her people from oppression.
15 more levels of Fighter: Hey, why not? She had the time to spare.
Cleric 9: A passing interest in religion, hoping that learning magic might give her a way out of the cycle. It didn't, though she still keeps up her faith.
Divine Oracle 10: Can see into the future.

So, a Fighter 20/Lasher 10/Duelist 10/Assassin 4/Cleric 9/Divine Oracle 10. What's that? Level 63? That sounds about right. She's seen it all, especially as far as combat goes, so it's really hard to outfight her.

See, it doesn't look like you NEED an epic level handbook!!
With the core classes and prestige classes all around, you'd never need epic level instructions, just an expanded XP chart, which is extremely easy to make up.

 

[Voneth]

Personaly, I'm just going to crack open my Exalted book when I want a game that high leveled.

 

[Number47]

Personally, my tastes are for low-level games. If someone wanted to run an epic game, though, I'd give it a try. Strangely, I disagree with most of you on the skills. The scaling of the skills sounds like the most worthwhile part! It is well within the realm of fantasy to swim up a waterfall or run along walls. The part that is probably going to be most bothersome are the furthering of spells and gaining new abilities. I mean, if the 30th level wizard decides to change his spell line-up one day, it's going to take ten minutes or more! I also pity the DM trying to run the game. Sure, each player can remember all those skills, spells and abilities they can do, but the DM is going to have a heck of a time designing adventures. So many of the characters will have some ability or other that might be able to let simply bypass your hard-worked adventure, or kill the monster in unexpected ways.

We'll see. I'm sure many will post their experiences.

 

[Lizard]

Yeah, the ideas of swimming up a waterfall or making a jump check that basically allows you to fly is to much for me.

Why?

This is what EPIC is all about. You aren't playing Lancelot -- you're playing Paul Bunyan or Gilgamesh. You're playing a hero of folklore, and you should be able to do folkloric, nearly godlike, things. Legends are full of people who "are so light of step, they can walk across a spider's web" and the like.

Why it is "sensible" for someone to be able to mutter a few magic words and fly, but "too much" for someone to swim up a waterfall?