Epic Levels from another Perspective

[Zarrock God of Evil]

I haven't received the ELH yet but I've followed the discussions here and on the Wizard's boards quite closely. Especially the complaints about the City of Union and what seems to be a guard composed of 30th level characters (and yes that thought had me baffled at first too). I brought up a thought, though. We are looking at Epic Levels from the human perspective.

Races who have a near-indefinite lifespan - like most Outsiders and probably including the Mercane, have an eternity to hone their skills to levels of perfection that the lesser races can only dream of (and - on top of that - often a far superior natural talent). For such races even 15th level characters could be seen as mere novices - beings who have yet only grasped the basics of their trade. After all, most of these races could have existed for untold millenia. Without having any detailed information on the entire concept of Union - I can only conclude that it is fairly likely to have enclaves of insanely powerful elder races at the fringes of the multiverse.

As I see it such races can be used in the following manner (these strategies are perfectly valid even in non-epic adventures as long as the power-gap is big enough) :


1. The "Borg" Strategy: A far superior race threatens to destroy the world/plane/kingdom etc. of the PCs. The enemy is so inherently superior that battle is futile. The PCs are among the few individuals who can actually go toe-to-toe with this race and hope to survive but they are hopelessly outnumbered. Diplomacy, stealth, and other desperate measures (like those seen in Independence Day, Star Trek and Babylon 5) have to be employed....

2. The "Old Ones" Approach: The old, ultra powerful races are fairly uncaring and don't get involved much in the normal world. This opens up a lot of campaign ideas. Ýou can use these beings like in CoC or go the Babylon 5 route (in which case they'll probably get involved later on - at least some of them - and you can return to sth similar to the Borg Strategy).

3. The Star Gate Approach: The old, ultrapowerful races are the true rulers of most of the lesser races. This works best as the offset for an entire campaign - in a rather grim setting. Of course, you could take the entire Star Gate idea and make the PCs epic plane travellers, trying to free their weaker brethren from the power of a tyrannical long-lived race of awesome power.

That's pretty much it for now. I'll post more when I think this through a bit more ;-)

-Zarrock

 

[Psion]

I haven't received the ELH yet but I've followed the discussions here and on the Wizard's boards quite closely. Especially the complaints about the City of Union and what seems to be a guard composed of 30th level characters (and yes that thought had me baffled at first too). I brought up a thought, though. We are looking at Epic Levels from the human perspective.

Well, the characters depicted ARE human. If the ultra-powerful mercane used leShay mercenaries, or appointed Klatuu-like uber-golems to keep the peace, that would have made sense to me.

Races who have a near-indefinite lifespan - like most Outsiders and probably including the Mercane, have an eternity to hone their skills to levels of perfection that the lesser races can only dream of (and - on top of that - often a far superior natural talent).

Heh... I'm already on the same page as you... in fact, already have been for a while. When I do demographics in my world, I up the default levels of long lived NPC races. Most gnomes, dwarves, and elves have a few levels in their favored classes, even the commoners.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Re: Re: Epic Levels from another Perspective

Well, the characters depicted ARE human. If the ultra-powerful mercane used leShay mercenaries, or appointed Klatuu-like uber-golems to keep the peace, that would have made sense to me.

Yes - if they are human it doesn't make much sense. In that case what did they do? Scour the planes for the greatest champions of a hundred worlds to enlist them in their service and then make sure the don't die of old age?

I think I'll use Union - but definitely not with human guards...

Heh... I'm already on the same page as you... in fact, already have been for a while. When I do demographics in my world, I up the default levels of long lived NPC races. Most gnomes, dwarves, and elves have a few levels in their favored classes, even the commoners.
(/B]

That makes a lot more sense - I do understand, however, that the design teams are reluctant to do this as it'll trigger the old "why don't the old races just take over the world".

But when one thinks of - for instance - a Dwarven swordsmith. During the first few hundreds years of his life he'll hone his skills within his trade tremendously and probably also serve in the clan militia and go toe-to-toe with some fairly formidable foes along the way. Even this fairly average, middle-aged Dwarven smith would probably have sth like 3-5 levels of fighter (depending on the number of wars/battles the clan is engaged in - and how many required his presence) and probably at least that in the Expert (smith) class. Needless to say, members of such long-lived races will have a much larger average chance of reaching epic levels when even their non-adventuring population can easily reach levels most humans never even approach.

-Zarrock

 

[The Sigil]

Re: Re: Re: Epic Levels from another Perspective

That makes a lot more sense - I do understand, however, that the design teams are reluctant to do this as it'll trigger the old "why don't the old races just take over the world".

But when one thinks of - for instance - a Dwarven swordsmith. During the first few hundreds years of his life he'll hone his skills within his trade tremendously and probably also serve in the clan militia and go toe-to-toe with some fairly formidable foes along the way. Even this fairly average, middle-aged Dwarven smith would probably have sth like 3-5 levels of fighter (depending on the number of wars/battles the clan is engaged in - and how many required his presence) and probably at least that in the Expert (smith) class. Needless to say, members of such long-lived races will have a much larger average chance of reaching epic levels when even their non-adventuring population can easily reach levels most humans never even approach.

I don't necessarily see a conflict here at all...

The "long-lived" races (elves, dwarves) are almost always depicted as having extraordinarily low birth rates (compared to humans). Yeah, your whole population may be 6th level, but is that going to help you conquer the humans when your population is only a few hundred against their several thousands? I happen to think that it wouldn't be two hard for a foe that outnumbers you 10 or 20 to one to bring you down... even if you are a few levels higher. Throw a 6th-level fighter at 20 1st-level fighters who are dug in and prepared for an assault - they will probably be able to whittle him down with missile fire as he approaches than get constant flanking bonuses on him... and 6th-level isn't enough for a whirlwind attack. Add in shield walls and reach weapons and the odds get even worse for the 6th-level guy.

Yeah, the average elf/dwarf is much tougher (read: more levels) than your average human, but also represents a greater percentage of his respective population... and is hence much more reluctant to give his life in assault (defense may be another matter).

--The Sigil

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Levels from another Perspective

I don't necessarily see a conflict here at all...

The "long-lived" races (elves, dwarves) are almost always depicted as having extraordinarily low birth rates (compared to humans). Yeah, your whole population may be 6th level, but is that going to help you conquer the humans when your population is only a few hundred against their several thousands? I happen to think that it wouldn't be two hard for a foe that outnumbers you 10 or 20 to one to bring you down... even if you are a few levels higher. Throw a 6th-level fighter at 20 1st-level fighters who are dug in and prepared for an assault - they will probably be able to whittle him down with missile fire as he approaches than get constant flanking bonuses on him... and 6th-level isn't enough for a whirlwind attack. Add in shield walls and reach weapons and the odds get even worse for the 6th-level guy.

Yeah, the average elf/dwarf is much tougher (read: more levels) than your average human, but also represents a greater percentage of his respective population... and is hence much more reluctant to give his life in assault (defense may be another matter).

True - my initial post didn't specifically talk about dwarves, elves and like races either - more Outsiders and other near-immortal races. Most Outsiders are extremely numerous and it's reasonable to assume that what normal humans consider "Epic" characters are no more than talented individuals in the eyes of these beings - that was the original topic of this post. But as a sidenote:

I don't buy your statement that dwarves - and other longlived humanoids - should be more reluctant to go into battle. Sure - long-lived creatures have a different perspectives on things and especially Elves are likely to operate with very long-term strategies. Most humanoids have a strong warrior culture and a long history of continuing warfare behind them, though. If anything determines the reluctancy of a race to go into war, it's their culture, and disposition. Dwarves are a warrior culture and would never shun battle. They are, however, not overtly aggressive in their relations to most races. But if orcs or goblinoids move in next door....

-Zarrock