-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Epic Spellcasting Variant [PLAYTESTING]
- Thread starter andargor
- Start date
I was looking over your stuff and decided to check some of the spells in the SRD, to make some mental notes. The first thing that happened (which always happens when I do this) is that I find a spell that's outrageously useless.
Dire Winter. Spellcraft DC 319. 319?! Who is possibly ever going to do this? So you get a big blizzard, big deal. Nature produces blizzards of this size (and far, far, larger ones) somewhere just about every winter. Yeah, the spell does tons of damage against things that can't get out of the area of effect. Big deal. A wizard could easily conjure up a similarly useful amount of damage (targeted more specifically), and not have to be 100th level to manage it.
Geez.
I'm really looking forward to a better system, with cooler spells.
Oh, and Dire Winter will set you back 10,000xp. Harumph.
Dave
Dire Winter. Spellcraft DC 319. 319?! Who is possibly ever going to do this? So you get a big blizzard, big deal. Nature produces blizzards of this size (and far, far, larger ones) somewhere just about every winter. Yeah, the spell does tons of damage against things that can't get out of the area of effect. Big deal. A wizard could easily conjure up a similarly useful amount of damage (targeted more specifically), and not have to be 100th level to manage it.
Geez.
I'm really looking forward to a better system, with cooler spells.
Oh, and Dire Winter will set you back 10,000xp. Harumph.
Dave
Okay, as to the system itself.
First, it's probably okay that Epic spell slots requires a feat. I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, it's not like a wizard has to spend feats to get, say, 4th level spell slots. So, it seems unfair to have to spend feats to get 10th or higher level spell slots. On the other hand, wizards have plenty of feats at 21st level and above, so this might be okay. (I've never played an epic character, and will only start DMing them in a year or so.)
I like the at-will cantrip rule. Consider it stolen. It would be interesting to introduce a feat, that has this "ability to cast cantrips at will" as a prerequisite. This feat would then allow you to cast 1st level spells at will; and then another feat would allow you to cast 2nd level spells at will, etc. They would, of course, have more and more prerequisites--because if not they'd quickly become too powerful. I'll have to think about this one.
In general, I think I like the epic spell creation rules.
I'll consider them more in the future. Like I said, I'm thinking my players won't have epic characters until about a year from now. Between now and then there will probably be yet more systems introduced, and I'll be looking to take what I can from all of them to get the one I like most.
Dave
First, it's probably okay that Epic spell slots requires a feat. I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, it's not like a wizard has to spend feats to get, say, 4th level spell slots. So, it seems unfair to have to spend feats to get 10th or higher level spell slots. On the other hand, wizards have plenty of feats at 21st level and above, so this might be okay. (I've never played an epic character, and will only start DMing them in a year or so.)
I like the at-will cantrip rule. Consider it stolen. It would be interesting to introduce a feat, that has this "ability to cast cantrips at will" as a prerequisite. This feat would then allow you to cast 1st level spells at will; and then another feat would allow you to cast 2nd level spells at will, etc. They would, of course, have more and more prerequisites--because if not they'd quickly become too powerful. I'll have to think about this one.
In general, I think I like the epic spell creation rules.
I'll consider them more in the future. Like I said, I'm thinking my players won't have epic characters until about a year from now. Between now and then there will probably be yet more systems introduced, and I'll be looking to take what I can from all of them to get the one I like most.
Dave
Vrecknidj said:
I can't speak for all groups, but ours probably won't get past 30th level in the current campaign before we restart at 1st.
So, agreed, some of those epic spells are totally out of whack from our perspective. There are Divine rules after all, and there's a strange dichotomy at those obscenely high levels between mortals with godlike powers, and actual divinities.
Vrecknidj said:
I am still wavering on the prerequisites for epic slots myself, for very similar reasons. True streamlining with non epic rules should not involve anything other than class levels to gain the higher level spell slots.
What made me keep the feat in is the fact that you can actually gain access to 10th level spells before 20th level if you keep a linear progression (except the fiddling around 8th or 9th level spells). So a Wizard could get 10th level spells as early as 19th level. (Although even with the feat prerequisite this is still possible if the Wizard is mutliclassed and is ECL 21).
Is that a problem? Maybe, I don't know yet. But keeping some sort of prerequisite seemed the logical thing to do to draw some sort of line between epic and non epic without undue complexity. Still thinking about it.
Vrecknidj said:
Steal away! Concerning "at will" spells above 0th, I believe that Innate Spell from T&B (PGtF?) allows at will spells in exchange for a +8 level slot. The progressive slot system would work well with this.
Andargor
A while ago I was working on a new way to approach wizards. One reason was to revamp the specialist system, another was to almost require wizards to specialize. (You'll see where I'm going by the end, and why it fits the thread.) Here's the basic outline.
First, there's a class called the arcanist. This is a 6-level class; by 6th level, an arcanist can cast spells of 0 to 3rd level.
Second, there are eight advanced classes, each referring to a school. Each one has as a prerequisite the ability to cast 3rd level spells from the school (plus ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft and Concentration). Each of these classes is a 6-level class. You could choose to stick with one, and end up able to cast 6th level spells in that specific school, or you could multiclass and take more than one of these advanced classes, and get spells from more than one school, but take longer to get to 6th level spells.
Third, for each of these advanced classes, there is a prestige class, that continues the progression, and eventually allows up to 9th level spells (these are 8-level classes). But, there's also a prestige class for the generalist, the master arcanist. The master arcanist also eventually gets 9th level spells, but more slowly than the other prestige classes.
Anyway, I could, in effect, then introduce epic prestige versions of these, and do away with the feat prerequisites for epic spell slots and just build them in as class features. I could have similarly-constructed sets of classes, allowing, in effect, either rapid advancement in a particular school, somewhat-rapid advancement in two schools, or slower advancement as a generalist. In each case, certain kinds of epic spellcasting would become available at differing rates, based on the nature of the class.
Thanks for sending me back to that class idea!
Dave
First, there's a class called the arcanist. This is a 6-level class; by 6th level, an arcanist can cast spells of 0 to 3rd level.
Second, there are eight advanced classes, each referring to a school. Each one has as a prerequisite the ability to cast 3rd level spells from the school (plus ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft and Concentration). Each of these classes is a 6-level class. You could choose to stick with one, and end up able to cast 6th level spells in that specific school, or you could multiclass and take more than one of these advanced classes, and get spells from more than one school, but take longer to get to 6th level spells.
Third, for each of these advanced classes, there is a prestige class, that continues the progression, and eventually allows up to 9th level spells (these are 8-level classes). But, there's also a prestige class for the generalist, the master arcanist. The master arcanist also eventually gets 9th level spells, but more slowly than the other prestige classes.
Anyway, I could, in effect, then introduce epic prestige versions of these, and do away with the feat prerequisites for epic spell slots and just build them in as class features. I could have similarly-constructed sets of classes, allowing, in effect, either rapid advancement in a particular school, somewhat-rapid advancement in two schools, or slower advancement as a generalist. In each case, certain kinds of epic spellcasting would become available at differing rates, based on the nature of the class.
Thanks for sending me back to that class idea!
Dave
Playtesting update
Having played a few games with these variant rules, I am happy to report that no major problems were found. Below, a few house epic spells developed using these rules as a guideline, and one (zone of law) is campaign specific:
Blazing Ray
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
An orange-red ray of heated air and fire springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 25d6). Further, the ray ignores 5 points of fire resistance from your target.
Focus: A sliver of solidified lava.
Bursting Fireball
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
As fireball, except that the maximum damage is 20d6, and the fierceness of the detonation may literally blow creatures caught in the spell's area off their feet.
All creatures in the area of a bursting fireball that fail their saving throws not only take full damage but are pushed to the closest square outside the perimeter of the spell's 20-foot radius spread.
Any creature moved in this manner also takes an additional 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet moved (no additional damage if moved less than 10 feet by the effect) to a maximum of 2d6 points of damage and is knocked prone. If some obstacle prevents a blasted creature from being moved to the edge of the effect, the creature is stopped and takes 1d6 points of damage from striking the barrier (in addition to any damage taken from the distance moved before then). In any event, this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Concentrated Firebrand
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (200 ft. + 20 ft./level)
Area: One 5-ft.-radius burst/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
As firebrand, except that the spell ignores 10 points of fire resistance from the creatures caught in the spell's area.
Concurrent Firebrand
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: One 5-ft.-radius burst/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
As firebrand, except that the spell takes effect twice in the same area. Any variable characteristics or decisions you would make about the spell (including selected area), are applied to both spells, with affected creatures receiving all the effects of each spell individually (including getting two saving throws and two spell resistance checks).
Twofold Disintegrate
Transmutation [Epic]
Level: Destruction 11, Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (200 ft. + 20 ft./level)
Effect: 2 rays
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes
As disintegrate, except that two rays are fired simultaneously. The additional ray requires a separate ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals damage as normal. It can be fired at the same target as the first ray or at a different target, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other.
Zone of Law
Abjuration [Epic, Lawful]
Level: Cleric 10, Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, DF, XP (if made permanent; see text)
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 5 ft./level-radius emanation centered on a point in space
Duration: 1 hour/level or permanent (see text)
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
This powerful abjuration creates a protective bubble of lawful energy.
First, this spell enables lawful creatures within its area to cast spells normally for the duration of the spell even under the influence of magic that usually impedes spellcasting, such as spell failure due to chaotic influences.
Second, similarly to magic circle against chaos, all creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from chaos spell, and no nonlawful summoned creatures can enter the area either. You must overcome a creature's spell resistance in order to keep it at bay (as in the third function of protection from chaos), but the deflection and resistance bonuses and the protection from mental control apply regardless of enemies' spell resistance. This effect is not cumulative with protection from chaos and vice versa.
Lastly, similarly to dictum, any nonlawful creature within or entering the area of a zone of law spell suffers the following ill effects.
HD Effect
Equal to caster level Deafened
Up to caster level -1 slowed, deafened
Up to caster level -5 Paralyzed, slowed, deafened
Up to caster level -10 Killed, paralyzed, slowed, deafened
The effects are cumulative and concurrent. No saving throw is allowed against these effects.
Deafened: The creature is deafened for 1d4 rounds.
Slowed: The creature is slowed, as by the slow spell, for 2d4 rounds.
Paralyzed: The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.
Killed: Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.
Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonlawful extraplanar creatures within or entering the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.
Nonlawful creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by zone of law.
This spell may be made permanent by expending 5,000 XP.
XP Cost: 5,000 XP if made permanent.
Andargor
Having played a few games with these variant rules, I am happy to report that no major problems were found. Below, a few house epic spells developed using these rules as a guideline, and one (zone of law) is campaign specific:
Blazing Ray
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
An orange-red ray of heated air and fire springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 25d6). Further, the ray ignores 5 points of fire resistance from your target.
Focus: A sliver of solidified lava.
Bursting Fireball
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
As fireball, except that the maximum damage is 20d6, and the fierceness of the detonation may literally blow creatures caught in the spell's area off their feet.
All creatures in the area of a bursting fireball that fail their saving throws not only take full damage but are pushed to the closest square outside the perimeter of the spell's 20-foot radius spread.
Any creature moved in this manner also takes an additional 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet moved (no additional damage if moved less than 10 feet by the effect) to a maximum of 2d6 points of damage and is knocked prone. If some obstacle prevents a blasted creature from being moved to the edge of the effect, the creature is stopped and takes 1d6 points of damage from striking the barrier (in addition to any damage taken from the distance moved before then). In any event, this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Concentrated Firebrand
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (200 ft. + 20 ft./level)
Area: One 5-ft.-radius burst/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
As firebrand, except that the spell ignores 10 points of fire resistance from the creatures caught in the spell's area.
Concurrent Firebrand
Evocation [Epic, Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: One 5-ft.-radius burst/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
As firebrand, except that the spell takes effect twice in the same area. Any variable characteristics or decisions you would make about the spell (including selected area), are applied to both spells, with affected creatures receiving all the effects of each spell individually (including getting two saving throws and two spell resistance checks).
Twofold Disintegrate
Transmutation [Epic]
Level: Destruction 11, Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (200 ft. + 20 ft./level)
Effect: 2 rays
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes
As disintegrate, except that two rays are fired simultaneously. The additional ray requires a separate ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals damage as normal. It can be fired at the same target as the first ray or at a different target, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other.
Zone of Law
Abjuration [Epic, Lawful]
Level: Cleric 10, Sorcerer/Wizard 10
Components: V, DF, XP (if made permanent; see text)
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 5 ft./level-radius emanation centered on a point in space
Duration: 1 hour/level or permanent (see text)
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
This powerful abjuration creates a protective bubble of lawful energy.
First, this spell enables lawful creatures within its area to cast spells normally for the duration of the spell even under the influence of magic that usually impedes spellcasting, such as spell failure due to chaotic influences.
Second, similarly to magic circle against chaos, all creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from chaos spell, and no nonlawful summoned creatures can enter the area either. You must overcome a creature's spell resistance in order to keep it at bay (as in the third function of protection from chaos), but the deflection and resistance bonuses and the protection from mental control apply regardless of enemies' spell resistance. This effect is not cumulative with protection from chaos and vice versa.
Lastly, similarly to dictum, any nonlawful creature within or entering the area of a zone of law spell suffers the following ill effects.
HD Effect
Equal to caster level Deafened
Up to caster level -1 slowed, deafened
Up to caster level -5 Paralyzed, slowed, deafened
Up to caster level -10 Killed, paralyzed, slowed, deafened
The effects are cumulative and concurrent. No saving throw is allowed against these effects.
Deafened: The creature is deafened for 1d4 rounds.
Slowed: The creature is slowed, as by the slow spell, for 2d4 rounds.
Paralyzed: The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.
Killed: Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.
Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonlawful extraplanar creatures within or entering the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.
Nonlawful creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by zone of law.
This spell may be made permanent by expending 5,000 XP.
XP Cost: 5,000 XP if made permanent.
Andargor
apesamongus
First Post
Did you do anything to alter how fast caster classes get epic bonus feats? That rate is based on how much other stuff the character keeps getting (ie everything except BAB and saves and non-pattern class abilities). Casters tend to get bonus feats quite quickly, because all they really get with Epic levels is Caster level (as they get crappy HP and skill points and no class abilities), but with this change, they not only keep getting spell slots, but more powerful spells to boot. So, it seems they should get epic bonus feats at a slower pace.
apesamongus said:
Thanks for bringing that up. No, I hadn't considered it.
Looking at the epic feat progression of the following classes:
Code:
[b]Class[/b] [b]Epic Feat Interval[/b]
Fighter 2
Bard 3
Cleric 3
Paladin 3
Psion 3
Psychic Warrior 3
Ranger 3
Sorcerer 3
Soulknife 3
Wizard 3
Barbarian 4
Druid 4
Rogue 4
Monk 5In my opinion, I don't quite see that a change is required. I would even deem it undesirable because it changes more rules unnecessarily. The variant I propose is in fact a reduction in power compared to traditional epic spells which is balanced by more uses in line with non-epic spell progression.
But of course, you are free to adjust the epic feat progression in your campaign as you see fit. Each DM has their opinion of the relative power of each class in their campaign, and I'd like to make abstraction of that.
Andargor
Last edited:
