Epic Spells per day progression?

[Bagpuss]

To me the limit on spells per day is the row on 20th in the base spell casting class (or whatever is the top level in a pestige classes). You can't really define that by the terms character level, caster level or even class level thanks to how the pestige classes and multiclassing works.

I think that's the author's original intent, but its very hard to explain using XXX level as those words have fixed meanings.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

The practised Spellcaster Feat doesn't impact this conversation as much as you think.

Here's the reason why. Take your fighter 4/sorcerer 1. Only knows 1st levels spells and only gets slots as a 1st level sorcerer. But each spell he lets go is treated as if a 5th level sorcerer let it fly.

Now, say the character increases the fighter 4/sorcerer 16. The character knows spells as a 16th level sorcerer and has spell slots as a 16th level sorcerer, but each spell that is cast is treated as a 20th level caster.

Now, say the character goes to fighter 4/sorcerer 20. Obviously we're in Epic progression here. But, the sorcerer now has access to a normal sorcerer spell list since he is truly 20th level. {Thus, has gained a few spells and a few slots in the last 4 levels}. Additionally, caster level does increase in Epic levels, so this caster would use a caster level of 24 on spells. Everything still works as normal.

The only problem now is that many spells themselves - especially damage spells - cap the damage at a certain level. But you'd have that same problem if this would have been a sorcerer 24 build. But for things like duration, number of targets, etc the spells would essentially have a caster level of 24.

So practised spellcaster works as normal in Epic levels as pre-epic, except (I suppose) for spells that cap damage. But that isn't the fault of the feat, that's just the mechanics of the spell.

 

[Sledge]

I agree with Bagpuss. Look at the table. The bottom row is the best you can get. There is no epic extension by the raw.

 

[Shin Okada]

Maybe you guys are misunderstanding. I am not saying that there are, say, spells per day table for a 24th-level caster.

I am saying that if the spells per day progress stops at "20th caster level", someone with practiced spellcaster feat (or hierophant prestige class level) will never able to cast 9th-level spells even how much levels (of any class) they get at epic levels.

But anyway, the most reasonable answer seems to be, as Bagpuss said "he limit on spells per day is the row on 20th in the base spell casting class (or whatever is the top level in a prestige classes)". And yes, there is no short name for this limit. And rules are worded poorly. I hope someday WotC will publish much well-written epic rules.

 

[Silveras]

This is one of the reasons why I wish the spellcasting progressions were in a separate place, like the Mount and Familiar advancement material.

Wizard, for example, should give "+1 Level of Wizard spellcasting" per level.

This would a) make it easier to re-use the same progressions for all classes instead of having to repeat the table each time and b) make it clearer that non-epic spellcasting progression ends when you achieve 20 levels of "X class" spellcasting.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Maybe you guys are misunderstanding. I am not saying that there are, say, spells per day table for a 24th-level caster.

No, I'm not misunderstanding you. My post was directly related to the practised spellcaster feat - not the original question.

To answer the original question, my understanding of the rules is that caster level continues to increase with every level that increases a character's spellcasting ability - epic or not.

Spells known (for spontaneous casting classes like Bard, Sorcerer, etc) stop once the player has accumulated 20 class levels in a certain class OR 20 levels through a combination of base class levels and levels in which the special ability "+1 existing spellcasting class" is granted.

Spell slots stop increasing once the player has accumulated 20 class levels in a certain class OR 20 levels through a combination of base class levels and levels in which the special ability "+1 existing spellcasting class" is granted.


I think that is about as clear as it can be stated. It may not be right according to a few sources because the wording is poor in many places because they seem to use words interchangeably that shouldn't be used.


Under my understanding of the rules, Practised Spellcaster Feat has no impact whatsoever on any of the above since the Practised Spellcaster Feat increases caster level only and neither spells known nor spell slots granted. The only thing that effects spells known and spell slots granted are class levels (and the "+1 existing ..." special ability in some PrC classes - not caster levels. [Again, under my understanding of the rules]

 

[NimrodvanHall]

since complete adventurers is the latest book and it states:

However, spells per day don't increase after character level 20th.

the rules from this book overide the others.

so the F4sorc16 with practiced spell caster would have the spell list of a sorc 16 with a casterlvl of 20

at F4sorc20 he would have the spellist of a lvl 16 sorc (since his spells per day have not changed since character lvl 20), his caster lvl would be lvl 24

its actually quite simple.
the rule is really really stupid imho but this is how it is. This ruling might be defended by saying that since attacks from BaB dont change from character level 20 spells also should not be gained after lvl 20.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

the rules from this book overide the others.

Thank God I don't agree with that!

Especially since Complete Adventurerer isn't the latest book to come out. I thought Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness, and many of the "Races of..." books have come out since then. Surely these sources have other conflicting points of view? [Yes, that is me being sarcastic, not serious.]

Personally, I think this is a place where common sense should really take over with so many conflicting usages of words.

If you gain no spell levels in a class after character level 20 - then there would be not need to ever multiclass into a spellcasting class (or PrC for that matter) once epic rules take over. Okay, I suppose if you take a class that grants levels in what you already have you would get a bump to your caster level ... but beyond that they would be no point.