Jared Rascher
Explorer
First off, I want to agree with Ari that this is, indeed, not an edition limited problem. The same discussion has come up on Paizo's boards discussing how Paizo wants to handle epic level rules with Pathfinder.
One of the problems I think we had from the 3rd edition Epic Level Handbook is that we had no upper limit, and thus, no scope of what the game should look like. 25th level characters adventuring don't seem like they would be doing something even remotely similar to 50th level characters, and depending on how you look at it, 50th level characters may not even make sense in a given campaign.
Ari also brings up something that James Jacobs has said on Paizo's forums, that the Epic Level game pretty much needs to feel like a major paradigm shift, like something else, not like a bigger version of what has come before, but essentially the same.
Again, this was a mistake that the Epic Level Handbook made. We had things that were like massive beholders, things that were like massive spheres of annihilation, progression for more categories for dragons . . . its more of the same with bigger numbers, which means the GM really has to sell the encounters to make them feel like they aren't just the same thing with bigger numbers.
The BECMI immortal rules did dramatically shift what PCs were doing to run around doing cosmic things instead of just exploring, say, planar dungeons (nothing wrong with that, but I'd argue that's what high level, not epic level, characters should be doing). In fact, its an interesting way of understanding how the cosmic balance works.
Under 3rd edition's epic rules, demon lords and demigods become fairly mundane monsters, but if you move into the demigod spot, even if you can kill off some other cosmic beings, what kind of events are you putting into motion, and how might other cosmic beings react, especially when you can't hide behind being a lucky mortal back on the prime.
Now, here's the rub, and why I don't think any epic level rules have caught on as well as they could have. More of the same with bigger numbers doesn't work, but "almost completely new game" has one built in problem . . . its almost completely a new game. When people sign on to play D&D, they get used to the normal tropes of that game.
It may be fun to say that your character has ascended to demigodhood and now gets to seal planar rifts and travel through time and travel through the synapses of a greater god to cure his insanity, but the more of a different game it is, the more its like saying "convert your D&D characters over to Mutants and Masterminds and we'll build them as PL 20 characters."
I guess what I'm saying is, maybe the "epic level game" isn't destined to be the last part of the regular game, but really should be designed, developed, and marketed as a separate but related game. In a way, the BECMI system did this by having this as a separate boxed set that didn't need to be part of the main rules.
For companies, its desirable to frame the epic game as part of the main rules, because that ties in more sales, but it may not be a realistic goal to honestly see epic level rules as part of the "core" experience.
One of the problems I think we had from the 3rd edition Epic Level Handbook is that we had no upper limit, and thus, no scope of what the game should look like. 25th level characters adventuring don't seem like they would be doing something even remotely similar to 50th level characters, and depending on how you look at it, 50th level characters may not even make sense in a given campaign.
Ari also brings up something that James Jacobs has said on Paizo's forums, that the Epic Level game pretty much needs to feel like a major paradigm shift, like something else, not like a bigger version of what has come before, but essentially the same.
Again, this was a mistake that the Epic Level Handbook made. We had things that were like massive beholders, things that were like massive spheres of annihilation, progression for more categories for dragons . . . its more of the same with bigger numbers, which means the GM really has to sell the encounters to make them feel like they aren't just the same thing with bigger numbers.
The BECMI immortal rules did dramatically shift what PCs were doing to run around doing cosmic things instead of just exploring, say, planar dungeons (nothing wrong with that, but I'd argue that's what high level, not epic level, characters should be doing). In fact, its an interesting way of understanding how the cosmic balance works.
Under 3rd edition's epic rules, demon lords and demigods become fairly mundane monsters, but if you move into the demigod spot, even if you can kill off some other cosmic beings, what kind of events are you putting into motion, and how might other cosmic beings react, especially when you can't hide behind being a lucky mortal back on the prime.
Now, here's the rub, and why I don't think any epic level rules have caught on as well as they could have. More of the same with bigger numbers doesn't work, but "almost completely new game" has one built in problem . . . its almost completely a new game. When people sign on to play D&D, they get used to the normal tropes of that game.
It may be fun to say that your character has ascended to demigodhood and now gets to seal planar rifts and travel through time and travel through the synapses of a greater god to cure his insanity, but the more of a different game it is, the more its like saying "convert your D&D characters over to Mutants and Masterminds and we'll build them as PL 20 characters."
I guess what I'm saying is, maybe the "epic level game" isn't destined to be the last part of the regular game, but really should be designed, developed, and marketed as a separate but related game. In a way, the BECMI system did this by having this as a separate boxed set that didn't need to be part of the main rules.
For companies, its desirable to frame the epic game as part of the main rules, because that ties in more sales, but it may not be a realistic goal to honestly see epic level rules as part of the "core" experience.