Equipment = Move Silent Penalty?

[Water Bob]

In another thread, I expressed an idea of keeping track of equipment using index cards. One card for one piece of equipment. This makes it easy to keep track of such stuff. If players drop or leave a piece of equipment behind, they simply give me the appropriate card. If one character gives the other character a dagger, then the acutal data card is exchanged.

On the cards themselves, I just make quick notes. For example, Rexor is a dirk left to a PC by his father. The card has these notes:

(Top Line, left side: ) S - Waist
(Top Line, right side: ) 2

This indicates that it's the character Silaigne's possion, and he carries the weapon at his waist. The weapon weighs 2 lbs.

(Lower on the card: )

Cimmerian Dirk
Moose handle
Saw tooth upper edge
Marked on blade by hilt with Duncohr Xean symbol
Leather scabbard
Carried on weapon belt

Some cards have much less info. Others have full stats of the weapon (I didn't include stats on this card because the character has them listed in the four or five weapon lines included on the Character Sheet.

Any time a note about the item is necessary, I will simply put the note on the card.

I do this with everything. It only takes a few cards and makes the game so much more manageble for me (I'm a GM that is concerned with persnickety details such as this).

I also find that this makes the character seen more clearly in the mind's eye--makes the character easier to visulize. With a list of equipment on some page, we sometimes forget just how much stuff a character is carrying.





Well, I made equipment cards for one of my PC's last night, and when I was done, I set them up in front of me as if they were hanging on the body of their owner. I could clearly see that this character had a lot of equipment at his waist.

Here's how the character, Silaigne, looks (as far as his equipment goes).



Silaigne's Equipment (3rd level, 16 year old Cimmerian Barbarian)

Neck: Silver chain with Xean medallion



Right Arm: 5' leather cord wrapped around bicept.

Wrists: Leather bracers.

Hands: Critter Sticker (Hunting Spear)



Torso: Leather water costrel with chest strap.

Back: Large Steel Shield with carry strap.



Waist: Leather Belt

Waist: Pewter Mug (belt through handle)

Waist: Loincloth

Waist: Leather weapon belt

Waist: Animal skin kilt

Waist: War sword and scabbard (on weapon belt)

Waist: Rexor (dirk) and scabbard (on weapon belt)

Waist: Stiletto and scabbard (on weapon belt)

Waist: Belt Pouch A (on leather belt)

Waist: Whetstone (in Belt Pouch A)

Waist: Fishing Line (in Belt Pouch A)

Waist: Belt Pouch B (on leather belt) (contains coins)

Waist: Loot Sack C (tucked through leather belt)

Waist: Silver bowl (inside Loot Sack C)



Feet: Soft, animal skin shoes.



I use a bigger index card to record expendables. This one is bigger and easier to see among the other equipment cards, making it easier to pull out of the zip-lock pocket on the front of the Character Folder.

On one side, the player keeps track of Hit Points and Non-Lethal damage. The opposite side has this information:

33 Silver coins, 30 Coppers (Belt Pouch B)

3 vials of Clear Water (Belt Pouch B)

2 125 SP Saphires (Belt Pouch B)





I just realized that this is a long way to go for a point that is only tangentally about equipment and record keeping systems.

Sorry for that. I guess it really wasn't important to know all the equipment.

What I did, when I got through making the equipment cards for this person, was lay them out as I did above. This is a true "Conan" looking character--bare chested, black hair, icey blue eyes, his chest criss-crossed by the straps from his water costrel and shield. He wears a fur kilt and furry shoes, with leather bracers and not much else.

At his waist is all of his equipment, besides the iron pitted spear he carries in his hands. He's got two belt pouches and a near empty loot sack (the sack folded through the belt) at his waist along with his other weapons: The huge, broad war sword; a long-bladed dirk; and a thin-bladed stiletto. And, there's a pewter mug that rides above his rump, a belt run through its handle.

I can picture him well in my head....





....so much so, that I started thinking (Oh no!).

With all that equipment...all that clinking of the coins, the weapons scratching on themselves, the leather creaking...

Should I impose some penalty on moving silently?




I mean, when we're playing the game, we really don't consider the effect a character's equipment has on not being heard. In the stories, Conan will strip down to his loincloth, wearing only sandals and leather bracers, carrying a dagger in his teeth, as he sneaks up on his prey.

In the game, we allow characters, no matter how much equipment they have on them (some stuff, like armor, has modifiers to skill checks, I know) to make the same Move Silent throw whether they're naked or loaded to their Light Carry Maximum Weight.

What do you think of that?

I'm thinking along the lines of a -2 penalty unless the noiseier stuff is dropped when the character attempts stealth.

Thoughts?

 

[[OMENRPG]Ben]

That makes fine sense, although it is more of a question of system granularity. If you really want the characters to keep track of every item and the position it is on their body, which you obviously do, then this is probably not unreasonable to impose a penalty with such equipment.

I just don't think most people care. What you've done makes sense and is appropriate, but most gamers I know barely know what they are even carrying, scrawling notes all over their character sheets and sort of half-remembering how many arrows they have.

I would say something along the lines of -2 to -4 depending on equipment is reasonable within the d20 system, but this penalty doesn't even need to be made known to the player. You can just up the DC a little bit or the perception of the bad guy to simplify the math.

 

[Water Bob]

I just don't think most people care.

You're probably right.

I care, but not enough to bog the game down. Then, I thought of this card system (it started as a notebook paper system, but I cut it down), and this seems to be working fine. You fill out two dozen or so cards when the character is created--not really a problem. I don't make the cards too detailed--just the important info. Notes are made on the cards as information becomes important. For example, I wouldn't write down a sword's hit points unless it was damaged. If a sunder attempt was successful but did not break the sword, then I'd have the player simply record the sword's hit points at that time.

Visualizing equipment on the character is really key. And, you're right about a lot of players not really knowing what equipment they have. I'm finding that, with this system, the equipment is more "in their face".

It's easy to leave things behind--just hand those cards to the GM.

It's easy to give equipment to other players--just hand them the specified card.

It's easy to see what equipment was affected by a breath weapon--grab all the cards from the same specific body location.

It makes it easy if the GM wants to make the PCs spend money on mundanes like clothes--it's easy to damage or destroy specific items.

The system is maybe not for everybody, but I like it.

I would say something along the lines of -2 to -4 depending on equipment is reasonable within the d20 system, but this penalty doesn't even need to be made known to the player. You can just up the DC a little bit or the perception of the bad guy to simplify the math.

Agreed. And, interesting thought about not letting the player know....but I think I should at least give him a chance to drop equipment and avoid the penalty--Conan on bare feet with dagger in his teeth, so to speak.

 

[Nytmare]

I myself am usually all for abstract and retroactive blame in situations such as this.

Saying that the barbarian, who just flubbed a roll, failed his sneak check BECAUSE the goblin heard his equipment jangling is almost always preferable to a constant series of upkeep checks and cross referencing to see which bit of pretend reality is trodding on the toes of the other bits.

I am willing to view that +9 to sneak being broad enough to cover a nearly naked to fully equipped barbarian unless it's getting trumped by some other part of the game.

 

[Piratecat]

Thoughts?

I preface this by saying that you're a much more simulationist GM an I am, so I'm coming at it from a point of view you'll probably disagree with.

At its heart, the game is about killing monsters and taking their stuff. When you start adding house rules making it harder to enjoy the stuff you've taken, you encourage different behaviors. For instance, this house rule would encourage me to play a psion or an ascetic monk.

That makes me a little sad, because I love characters who have lots of fun trophies. So long as they don't add mechanical bonuses or strain my suspension of disbelief I think trophies and character bling are a great thing. If I'm getting a mechanical penalty for something that isn't giving me any sort of bonus, though, I'm being encouraged and rewarded to toss that flavor right out the window.

 

[Nightson]

Well, the armor check penalty already simulates for the clanking of the armor.

You could give them a +2 bonus on sneak checks if they dropped all but one weapon or all their miscellaneous equipment and a +4 bonus if they do both.

I'd advise against imposing a penalty because players tend to react harshly to penalties, and because the rules of the game seem to assume carrying that gear as the baseline.

There is also by the way, a lot of way to dampen the sound of equipment you're carrying, it might simply be assumed that the characters are doing so as a matter of default.

 

[BriarMonkey]

Well, if you are concerned about the coins clanking in a "purse", I'd suggest the following: get a small dice bag, fill it up with a couple handfulls of loose change, close it tight, hang it off your belt, walk around. Does it make as much noise as you expected? Try having someone listen for you across the room, or down the hall. Does it still make noise?

In my experiance, it's having only a couple coins that may make more noise, not a whole lot - especially in a tight fitting pouch.

As for the other gear banging about, unless something is shifting a lot, and allowing for contact with other gear, there really isn't a lot of noise. I say that because I have experiance with that in the military. If your gear is so ill-fitting that it can bang around, then you are going to be in a world of hurt due to your flesh being rubbed raw where ever that gear is moving. Blisters will form, skin may weep, and you will be miserable. If your gear fits properly, you won't have that issue, and surprise, it doesn't make a lot of noise.

And for those wee things that do make noise (like dog tags in the modern world), they can easily be wrapped in a bit of cloth (duct tape in the modern world) to stiffle their noise.

Honestly, I think you are over-thinking the issue of gear making noise.

Now, as for Conan and other sneaking up with nary a cloth and a knife, think of it this way: are you more agile with more gear or less? Can you swim better with more gear or less? It is issues like this that gear is normally shed, not noise.

Just my two shekels based on my own real-world experiances.