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Essential Essentials

Obryn

Hero
sometimes i make mistakes, and it was hardly a counter point, it just shows how identical HoS is to those other books
It's designed to be fully compatible with the Essentials line. It's not appropriate for an Essentials-only game like Encounters.

the word "essentials has come to be a descriptive word for all the content that follows the design style of those first ten books. wotc uses it as such and so does everyone else on the wotc boards.
I post over there, too, and (a) that's hardly a ringing endorsement, and (b) no, "everyone" doesn't.

And can you show where a dev has said that HoS or HoF are Essentials books? That's what we're talking about here. I know it's "the way going forward" in design philosophy, but that's way different from "HoS is an Essentials book."

The only thing I could consider "Essentials design" now would be.. extremely inconsistent design and mechanics. Put an idea in our head, and throw it out there to see what happens. Who cares if it works. That's kind of the impression I've been getting lately, especially with HoS. You have relatively well built classes (Blackguard and Executioner), and classes that aren't really good at anything (Binder and Vampire). So, that's Essentials design to me.
I would say that post-essentials design is more freeform. I don't disagree it's inconsistent - I just don't think that inconsistency is necessarily a bad thing.

Classes are designed towards a concept now, and aren't wedded to a specific advancement plan. They're also generally more sparse - I agree we likely won't see a full class with At-Will, Encounter, and Daily choices. I don't know that we need more, though - the ones we have cover the bases, and I think unique and unusual classes like the Bladesinger are a great way to improve the system with a minimum of bloat.

-O
 

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Droogie128

First Post
Conjecture, not fact.

Many people consider the Executioner to be a fail-class whilst others think the Vampire is the best thing since whipped cream in a can.

The only Essentials class that everyone agrees is a complete fail, is the Binder.

The Executioner performs well at its given role as a striker. The Vampire doesn't do anything well in particular except survivability. So, it'll be the last one to die because monsters have no reason to care about it. It just has no purpose mechanically speaking. It's like the 3e bard. Ok at a few things, not really good at anything.
 

Droogie128

First Post
It's designed to be fully compatible with the Essentials line. It's not appropriate for an Essentials-only game like Encounters.


I post over there, too, and (a) that's hardly a ringing endorsement, and (b) no, "everyone" doesn't.

And can you show where a dev has said that HoS or HoF are Essentials books? That's what we're talking about here. I know it's "the way going forward" in design philosophy, but that's way different from "HoS is an Essentials book."


I would say that post-essentials design is more freeform. I don't disagree it's inconsistent - I just don't think that inconsistency is necessarily a bad thing.

Classes are designed towards a concept now, and aren't wedded to a specific advancement plan. They're also generally more sparse - I agree we likely won't see a full class with At-Will, Encounter, and Daily choices. I don't know that we need more, though - the ones we have cover the bases, and I think unique and unusual classes like the Bladesinger are a great way to improve the system with a minimum of bloat.

-O

Inconsistency is a bad thing when it starts adding needless complexity and classes that don't function well towards design, though. Also, when it sacrifices game balance, which is one of the primary design goals of the system. I'm all for new and shiny, as long as it functions well at what it is designed for.
 

I never said they weren't viable. It just seems that they've been deemed non worthy of being versatile and dynamic. They're back to being linear, and that's very disturbing. They've also been deemed non worthy of compatibility with their PHB1 counterparts. Also, they've been returned to one option every round... "I swing my sword". Very cookie cutter now, very few customization options.

It would have been nicer to see stances that become available at paragon, and then epic stances. At least it would provide some feeling of real advancement. At level 30, you're mostly using the same stuff you had available to you at level 1, just more of it.

Martial classes have been reduced back to the training wheels of D&D. That's why I despise most of Essentials.

The only saving grace to these classes for me has been Martial Cross Training. It actually opens up some real customization options that these classes sorely lack.
I couldn't disagree more. I will concede that Essentials includes generally less-customizable class than did the early part of 4E, but I will argue heartily that this is a good thing, especially because Essentials does still allow for significant customization. (In short, I believe Essentials hit the sweet-spot in terms of class-customizability.)

If I'm reading your concerns correctly, Essentials most bugs you because you see it as a return to the bad-ol'-days of warrior- and rogue-types having only one basic combat option: "attack with sword". I can see why that would be worrisome; back in the day, not even so long ago, those classes were 1) boring to play, and 2) proved woefully inadequate against stronger, more magical enemies as the campaign progressed. Let me assure you, neither the Slayer nor Knight nor Thief nor Hunter nor Scout suffer these problems--and if they do, they certainly don't suffer them so acutely as their previous-edition forebears.

As you know, Essentials Martial classes have either At-Will "stances" or "tricks" that give them specific tactical advantages with either their movement, their basic attacks or both. Additionally, all of these classes gain Utility powers (mostly per encounter) that open up additional tactical advantages. In this way, while they make most of their attacks as basic attacks, they also have a significant number of tactical options available to them in every situation, and because these classes also scale with other 4E classes, they never become combat-irrelevant the way a 3E or AD&D Fighter would. It also saves one the trouble of wondering how many different ways there are to swing a sword, and why you can only swing it some way once per day. (Presumably it has something to do with pulling a muscle in your shoulder. ;))

"But that's not enough!" you might say. Well, here's where I'll have to admit that my next opinion is probably much more controversial:[sblock]I believe that pre-Essentials 4E, and 3E/3.5E before it, had too many options. I believe that 3E's uber-modular design (perhaps more reminiscent of GURPS than D&D) spoiled us with options, many of which turned out to be sub-optimal. As a result of this decade-old development, the number of options available to a given character (feats, spells, etc.) is paralytically broad and often rife with redundancies, slowing the game down as players search each book to try to remember exactly what each note on their character sheet means. Perhaps more dire, it also created the Character Optimization phenomena, including the tendency of players to retrain/redesign their characters as soon as they learn "the right way to have made their character." In my opinion, the optimization mindset robs each character of the personalization each player invests in it by designing it himself or herself, creates two tiers of characters (optimized and crap), and ultimately reduces viable options within the game as each option becomes named as either "useless" or "too awesome not to have."

D&D and AD&D prior to 3E didn't have the same culture of optimization that modern editions do. In part, this is because of more limited gaming infrastructure--access to messageboards, especially--prior to 2000. More importantly though, I believe this lack of optimization was also due to the less-modular nature of those games; since players had dramatically fewer options, they had far fewer opportunities to optimize or hamstring their characters, and thus didn't spend any time worrying about doing so. (To be overly simplistic, since players had almost no choice about their characters' development, all Fighters, for example, were therefore equally optimized insofar as anything the player could change.) In short, more choices leaves players with more ways to break the game, which is anathema to fun in the long run.[/sblock]I believe that class design in Essentials achieves an ideal balance between character options and role reliability. I also believe it provides the most playable-yet-true-to-style examples of classic AD&D classes in quite a while. In contrast, while giving everyone powers in 4E was a great experiment in the development of D&D, it kinda washed away a lot of the D&D flavour by, in a way, making everybody into a different kind of Wizard; Essentials preserves the balance of 4E but takes us back towards the "essential" D&D flavour of 1E AD&D, which I think is a brilliant sign for the future.

HoS is not an "Essentials" product. It does follow Essentials design, though... mostly. Essentials design isn't really well defined either, though. The Mage, for example, is largely unchanged from the PHB1 design, except for a few minor details. It's really just a new build for the Wizard. The Warpriest still follows the classic design, only trimmed down. The Slayer and Knight are a complete rework of the mechanics. The Vampire doesn't really follow any kind of design philosophy. You could maybe just call it the classic 4e design put on rails.

The only thing I could consider "Essentials design" now would be.. extremely inconsistent design and mechanics. Put an idea in our head, and throw it out there to see what happens. Who cares if it works. That's kind of the impression I've been getting lately, especially with HoS. You have relatively well built classes (Blackguard and Executioner), and classes that aren't really good at anything (Binder and Vampire). So, that's Essentials design to me.
I really think HoS is a whole separate can of worms from Essentials. It's obviously modeled after Essentials, but it's not designed with the same thoroughness that I find the Essentials classes have, and I think the Vampire is an excellent example of this.
 

Obryn

Hero
Inconsistency is a bad thing when it starts adding needless complexity and classes that don't function well towards design, though. Also, when it sacrifices game balance, which is one of the primary design goals of the system. I'm all for new and shiny, as long as it functions well at what it is designed for.
I don't see any sort of needless complexity. :shrug:

I see a welcome addition to the 4e system - specifically a broad range of complexity which players can pick from. This lets newbies and veterans both pick easier classes when they want less tracking.

And balance? I'm not seeing it. Yeah, the Binder is bafflingly bad, and the Vampire is kinda off. (I think it's fine for what it does, though. It's quite passable as a striker for most groups, at least through Heroic and into Paragon, and it has a unique collection of abilities you can't match with any other classes.) But pretty well everything in HotFL/HotFK is fine and enjoyable.

Remember, too - balance isn't inherent in the old-style classes. Allow me to introduce my friend the Seeker...

-O
 

Droogie128

First Post
I couldn't disagree more. I will concede that Essentials includes generally less-customizable class than did the early part of 4E, but I will argue heartily that this is a good thing, especially because Essentials does still allow for significant customization. (In short, I believe Essentials hit the sweet-spot in terms of class-customizability.)

If I'm reading your concerns correctly, Essentials most bugs you because you see it as a return to the bad-ol'-days of warrior- and rogue-types having only one basic combat option: "attack with sword". I can see why that would be worrisome; back in the day, not even so long ago, those classes were 1) boring to play, and 2) proved woefully inadequate against stronger, more magical enemies as the campaign progressed. Let me assure you, neither the Slayer nor Knight nor Thief nor Hunter nor Scout suffer these problems--and if they do, they certainly don't suffer them so acutely as their previous-edition forebears.

As you know, Essentials Martial classes have either At-Will "stances" or "tricks" that give them specific tactical advantages with either their movement, their basic attacks or both. Additionally, all of these classes gain Utility powers (mostly per encounter) that open up additional tactical advantages. In this way, while they make most of their attacks as basic attacks, they also have a significant number of tactical options available to them in every situation, and because these classes also scale with other 4E classes, they never become combat-irrelevant the way a 3E or AD&D Fighter would. It also saves one the trouble of wondering how many different ways there are to swing a sword, and why you can only swing it some way once per day. (Presumably it has something to do with pulling a muscle in your shoulder. ;))

"But that's not enough!" you might say. Well, here's where I'll have to admit that my next opinion is probably much more controversial:[sblock]I believe that pre-Essentials 4E, and 3E/3.5E before it, had too many options. I believe that 3E's uber-modular design (perhaps more reminiscent of GURPS than D&D) spoiled us with options, many of which turned out to be sub-optimal. As a result of this decade-old development, the number of options available to a given character (feats, spells, etc.) is paralytically broad and often rife with redundancies, slowing the game down as players search each book to try to remember exactly what each note on their character sheet means. Perhaps more dire, it also created the Character Optimization phenomena, including the tendency of players to retrain/redesign their characters as soon as they learn "the right way to have made their character." In my opinion, the optimization mindset robs each character of the personalization each player invests in it by designing it himself or herself, creates two tiers of characters (optimized and crap), and ultimately reduces viable options within the game as each option becomes named as either "useless" or "too awesome not to have."

D&D and AD&D prior to 3E didn't have the same culture of optimization that modern editions do. In part, this is because of more limited gaming infrastructure--access to messageboards, especially--prior to 2000. More importantly though, I believe this lack of optimization was also due to the less-modular nature of those games; since players had dramatically fewer options, they had far fewer opportunities to optimize or hamstring their characters, and thus didn't spend any time worrying about doing so. (To be overly simplistic, since players had almost no choice about their characters' development, all Fighters, for example, were therefore equally optimized insofar as anything the player could change.) In short, more choices leaves players with more ways to break the game, which is anathema to fun in the long run.[/sblock]I believe that class design in Essentials achieves an ideal balance between character options and role reliability. I also believe it provides the most playable-yet-true-to-style examples of classic AD&D classes in quite a while. In contrast, while giving everyone powers in 4E was a great experiment in the development of D&D, it kinda washed away a lot of the D&D flavour by, in a way, making everybody into a different kind of Wizard; Essentials preserves the balance of 4E but takes us back towards the "essential" D&D flavour of 1E AD&D, which I think is a brilliant sign for the future.

I really think HoS is a whole separate can of worms from Essentials. It's obviously modeled after Essentials, but it's not designed with the same thoroughness that I find the Essentials classes have, and I think the Vampire is an excellent example of this.

You totally missed the point completely.

Emartial classes have an extremely limited amount of tactical options to choose from. They get one extremely small pool of tricks/stances/ whatever to pick from throughout their entire career. The options available never change from 1-30. They're reduced to one trick ponies, and have had versatility removed almost completely.

The mage retains a huge amount of versatility, receives thousands more tactical options (due to retaining the aedu structure), and is almost fully compatible with its phb1 counterpart.

Martial classes became more narrow, mages became more broad. I find this almost insulting, as tge martial power source has been my favorite. It's like they're saying the people playing martial classes can't handle the vast array of options available to the caster. Something that was common in previous editions, and that 4e core killed off.

Wizards rule (built for the superior intellectual gamer). Fighters drool (built for Gomer Pyle). Martial = the training wheels of D&d once again.

New guy joins, let him play the fighter. I hated that in previous editions, and now it's back.

Now, if they had made the mage the same way as a simple blaster type with a similar mechanic, I might not have minded. They chose to make it linear/simple martial classes, complex wizards.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
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ourchair

First Post
That's way different from calling HoS an Essentials book. :)

-O
Indeed.

Whenever the designers and developers say 'Essentialized' I think it's less an instance of them distinguishing what is Essentials or not and more a case of them adopting the way the term has been used online as a short hand to refer to changes in design approach that have emerged since Essentials.

I mean they're not going to say '4.5ized' are they? :p
 

Grabuto138

First Post
Everyone should have to comment on the original posters question, in the spirit of his question, before persuing this mostly unhelpful and useless contest over what technically constitutes "essentials."
 

You are not comparing like for like. The book of Nine Swords was made for the core rules and the core rules consisted out of the 3.5 books because they were meant to replace the 3.0 books. The situation with beginning 4th edition and Essentials is not the same thing with regards to the example that you gave.

Before you try and argue my logic you might want to first understand that logic a little better and actually give an example that actually goes with the argument.

It is wholly and exactly comparing like with like.

4e screwed up. It made everything except worldbooks core. Which meant Core became a meaningless term. Essentials is a new core for 4e. A core that remains core and doesn't get extended every time a new splatbook came out. According to 4e, Martial Power 2 IIRC is core.

Before you try and argue your logic you might want to first understand the actual facts. Essentials is exactly analogous to what in previous editions would be Core.
 

ourchair

First Post
Everyone should have to comment on the original posters question, in the spirit of his question, before persuing this mostly unhelpful and useless contest over what technically constitutes "essentials."
I knoerait?

But that's the nature of message boards. Everyone wants to get the final word on something, regardless of whether they agree with the post they are responding to or not.

That said...

barabelsftw said:
Before I consider purchasing some of the essential books (heroes of forgotten lands, heroes of shadow ect.) I wanted to know if it was actually worth buying.
In a short word, yes.

They're good value for money in the sense that they give you races and classes in a highly portable soft-cover format, revised errata, and clean presentation.

barabelsftw said:
My players and I have had no problem with the rules or building characters in the original phb's and the essentials books at a very brief look seem to be very simplified.
Simplified? Yes.

Now it's easy to think 'simplified'='dumbed down' and if that's your concern, then not really.

Essentials classes have the folllowing distinct features,
1. Less elaborate mechanics.
2. Clearly defined direction for players to follow.
3. Mostly optimized math.

I could go on and on about each point, but suffice it to say that they are only 'simplified' in the sense that it's harder to 'break' an Essentials character and make it sub-optimal. If anything they are more 'idiot proof' than they are 'dumbed down'.

barabelsftw said:
I just wanted to know what the differences between the books are and If they are worth purchasing.
You mentioned that you already have the 3 PHBs.

As far as I'm concerned, while Essentials are worthy purchases, I doubt you really want to purchase it. You already have metric ton of classes to play with.

There isn't really all that much value to be added to your current D&D experience with Essentials. In fact, it'll be quite awhile till you get sick of all the stuff you have -- unless you get struck by the 'must have a new shiny' bug at some point -- and from what you said, you and your group seem pretty happy with the nature and design of the classes you already have.
 

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