Essentialism and a solution to replacing the LA system

[OneWinged4ngel]

Thought some folks might appreciate this here, so here's a repost of an oldie but a goodie. An LA replacement that'll handle whatever you throw at it much more easily and in a far more balanced fashion.

Another house rule from my tabletop, this one letting you play MONSTERS. Cuz let's face it, the rules as written don't really let you play monsters.

Why don't they really play monsters?

Well, the LA and ECL system generally ends up with you hideously underpowered, subject to mookclearing spells (nothing like being the one guy in the party who dies with no save from Cloudkill thanks to his lacking HD :wall). In the few cases it doesn't, it shoehorns you extremely heavily into a very limited selection of classes, and this is usually just with a tiny little +1 LA!

On the other hand, the Monster Class system let's you play monsters from level one... except they lack their Essential traits that defines them as monsters! (More on that later). It just doesn't make sense for you to start play as a baby dragon, kill a few orcs for a few weeks, then be a gigantic monster. Not to mention that I don't even know how you call yourself a medusa without stone gaze or anything. Basically, you're not playing the monster, you're playing some... thing until you get to a significantly high level where you're kinda like a monster, and by then you more or less have LA anyways.

Myself, I've long since stopped using LA, recognizing that it just didn't work. However, I wasn't going to let WotC's ineptitude get in the way when someone asked me to play a monster, oh no. :nonono

So here's my band-aid on the problem. It's not perfect (and indeed rather ad hoc), but hey, it works well, gives you no LA, is pretty much balanced with a human, and lets you play minotaurs and whatever right off. Players can be whoever they want to be without feeling chastised for their decision.

Essentialist philosophy really simply explains the nature of this little band-aid fix. All things are posessed of "Essential" traits, traits that define a thing and without those traits, that thing is not that thing anymore. For example a medusa's stone gaze or snaky hair is essential to a medusa being a medusa. If you can't petrify people by winking at them, you're not a medusa. And if you don't have snaky hair, you're not a medusa. On the other hand, all things are also possessed of "accidental" traits, traits that a thing happens to have, but without them it would still be that thing. For example, a medusa's HD number. A medusa with 6 HD is a medusa as much as a medusa with 8 HD.

The thing is, by removing the "accidental" traits of a race and boiling it down to the "essential" traits, and using a bit of mechanical creativity, you can rather easily pare down most monsters (particularly "character" monsters, as opposed to things like... puzzle monsters or glass cannons that aren't even remotely well rounded) to a pretty low level. You get rid of aaaall the accidental traits. Done right, this actually leaves you with a pretty good LA zero (although you may have a "minimum level to play" requirement. See "Powerful Racial Traits below). In fact, it's often still weaker than playing a Human, the focus of many a charop build.

Some specific things to consider:
-High ability scores. If a monster has a "20 cha," do we really need to give that LA zero template +10 Cha, and THEN apply your "heroic scores" after that to get 28 or something? No! Instead, have the player set up his point buy according to his race, and then add a smaller bonus. Said monster might have +2 Cha, and the player invests a 16 in Cha. 18 Cha is close enough. So, instead of playing a "super heroic statted human" you play a "relatively normal statted monster" which is okay, because an adventuring monster is extraordinary enough already.

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Heroic Attribute Points:
If I want to have a monster with +4 strength and +4 dexterity and +4 intelligence at level one, that's totally fine and totally balanced with a normal level 1 human. No, really. Here's why. Assume for the moment we're keeping to just a point buy system. You usually have 18 heroic points (that's point buy points) with which to build up your character above the average generic person of your race, and you can get extra points by taking scores down from your base (for instance, +2 points if a human knocks down their dex to 8). A human has "Base stats: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10" and 18 heroic attribute points to raise them above the normal human. A half orc has "Base stats: 12, 10, 10, 8, 10, 10" and 18 heroic attribute points to raise them above the normal half-orc. Aforementioned would-be LA creature has "Base stats 14, 14, 10, 14, 10, 10" and only 6 heroic attribute points to raise themselves above the norm. Instead of having "super awesome human" you have "slightly better than normal super-race." And that's totally fine and equal, and nowhere near as restrictive as LA. You can also get those scores up even higher than 20 for "minimum level" races.

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Okay. So, first, the preface.

Racial penalties suck. Especially with point buy. Why is this?

First off, what are racial penalties (and bonuses for that matter) for? Well, quite simply, the half-orc is supposed to get +2 strength and -2 intelligence to make him more "orcish." Basically, orcs are stronger than humans, but less intelligent than humans. However... there are two major problems with this.

The first obvious problem is that it shoehorns you into class roles. The game just plain hates you for even thinking of trying to play an orc wizard or something.

The second problem is that it doesn't do what it's intended to do. It doesn't actually *make you more orcish,* particularly with Point Buy. Here's how it actually works: Take two wizards. One is a human, one is a half-orc. Let's even say they're going for grapplemancers or something so that they both want strength after int. They both want 16 intelligence. The orc, however, pays 6 extra points for intelligence compared to the human. The human uses those 6 points to invest in his secondary stat, Strength. The human and half-orc have spent the same number of points, and yet the human has 14 strength and 16 int, and the half-orc has 10 strength and 16 int. Tell me, who is more "orcish" in this equation? That's right, the human.

So... basically, this system doesn't work at all. All it really does is say "you are less effective at everything else if you raise this stat up past X (12 in the case of the half-orc)." In the case of bonuses, it's the reverse. You're not better at strength with the half orc, you're better at everything *else* because you have more points left over after you spent them on strength to apply to other areas. It doesn't emphasize strengths and weaknesses, it just makes you suck more at everything if you're not boosting your strength to the extremes of heroic levels, or vice versa.

With the problem of racial bonuses and penalties in point buy situations in mind (the adjustments actually make EVERYTHING ELSE better or worse if you raise that stat past a certain threshold, rather than actually making that one stat better or worse), you can better understand how this simple change is an obvious improvement. Note that this behavior doesn't apply when rolling stats.[/sblock]

-Powerful racial abilities. Let's take a look at the medusa. They want Stone Gaze, but Stone Gaze kills folks with petrification! *Gasp!* That's like, a 5th level spell right there. So... it's like one level appropriate ability for a 9th level character, you say? Well then! Instead of making people use 9 class levels for a non-scaling ability and messing up their geometric progression, why not just have a "minimum level to play this race" requirement and use up a feat slot or two with "I'm a medusa and can look at people to turn them to stone." You could lower the minimum level a bit by nerfing the ability some (and maybe having it grow later with more racial feats) such as "4e / Lost Odyssey style medusa gaze." Sure, you can't play the racial concept at level 1, but wanting to play an Ice Giant as a level 1 character is about as reasonable a concept as wanting all the talents of Elminster at level 1. Thing is, at level X when it is appropriate, you can have full class levels and be a balanced character with everyone else, and that's awesome.

-Melding stuff into class. A great example of this is the Dragonmarked Sorcerer variant from Dragon Magazine, where instead of using up feats on Dragonmarks (which are kinda like racial feats that givee you SLAs in the Eberron setting), you just add those spells to your Spells Known. Making a Sorcerer demon? Roll in some of those SLAs to your spell list! Playing a mind flayer psion? Pull in those psionic abilities to your repertoire from class! Remember, all the mechanics involved in your character are involved in the same construct that is "you." Your race and class abilities don't actually need to be seperate. That succubus bard or sorcerer could have her Charm ability from her Bard levels, rather than a racial ability.

So for an example of this theory applied (actually an example a buddy of mine gave from his latest game after he used my system. I like it because it shows how other people can use it too!): A player comes up to you and says she wants to play a fallen angel who has become a Succubus. The DM says "what defines a succubus for you?" The answer comes as "it's gotta have the ability to change shape into other humanoid forms, use a charm SLA, be socially adept, and telepathy! She doesn't need wings, because they were torn off when she was cast from heaven." So the DM says "Okay, you have +2 Cha / -2 Con and allot your point buy appropriately to model a succubus, a changeling's minor shapechage, Charm from your Bard class (or as an SLA 1/day at first level), mind link like a Kalashtar, and +2 to two social skills of your choice. Your first feat is taken up by "I'm a succubus." The player allots her stats in a Succubus-like way, such as maxxing out Charisma for a total of 20. Bam, the player now looks very much like a succubus. She isn't a very powerful one, and she lacks wings and teleportation and demon summoning, but that's not essential to her vision of a succubus, and she can get those things later in her progression. And she can seriously play that from level 1 and not break the game. Heck, people would still take Human over it, because they're getting 2 more feats out of the deal

It's worked out great in every game I've used it. No real trouble with balance, and the monster players are happy as can be. Great fun was had by all. Obviously, some of these templates are gonna be rather strong, but in every case it's been simply a matter of me allowing a player to play a unique concept, not a matter of "I want to optimize my character more with a minotaur." As I said, it's a band-aid for practical gaming, not a complete fix (that would require a complete overhaul rewriting all races and monsters). And it's a helluva lot more viable than monster classes or LA, that's for sure! Not to mention that it avoids you having to say those horrible words "No, you can't be who you want to be, because the mechanics suck."

Anyways, hope you find this useful. Also, please bother to actually read and understand the entire system before you post some kneejerk reaction, because last time I posted this... well, everything that came up was actually addressed in the first post anyways, a few select people just didn't have the courtesy to read more than a paragraph. That said, I'd absolutely love if someone could point out some hole in this (please provide an actual example and details so your issue can be properly addressed) so that I could improve it.

-Signed,

 

[Herzog]

I like the way you are thinking.
However, what you have written down here is not really a 'system'. It's an elaborate way of mentioning rule 0.

Also, you are in a way creating custom classes and feats to allow for balance, without actually specifying them (if you want to play a succubus with these abilities, you loose your first level feat)

Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not really a system.
Although you are reminding every DM out there (ok, every DM who read this) that they should feel free to adjust races and classes as they see fit, other than specifying that you feel they should focus on the essentials of the class (as seen by player and DM) instead of stripping off the parts that seem to make it unbalanced, you're not telling us anything we don't (or should I say: should?) know.

Having said that: thank you for reminding us this is OUR game, and we should treat it that way.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

I like the way you are thinking.
However, what you have written down here is not really a 'system'. It's an elaborate way of mentioning rule 0.

Yes and no.

Yes, it really is a set of design guidelines for adapting monsters as PCs rather than something you just pull out of a book and suddenly you know exactly how to build and play the ice giant because the written work told you so. Further, all houserules (or even all rules) can be said to be an implementation of rule zero, so that hardly seems to be a point...

No, It's actually more of a 'system' than LA is. There is an element of user interpretation in both systems. The main difference is that with LA, the writers already did the interpreting for you on each and every monster. I'm not going to actually be giving you a rewrite of every monster in every MM simply because that's a wholly unreasonable amount of work for me to do without getting paid as a game designer (I do have a life to carry on, after all), though I might do adaptations on request (as I have done for some in the past who were using this system). It is significantly more methodical than going to someone and saying "hey, here's a monster, figure out how many levels you lose." You actually have tons of things to correlate all those abilities to, whereas LA tells you to break out of the level system and try to figure out how that correlates to anything else (which is a tricky equation, to say the least, because the entire rest of the system wants you to have full levels, and you run into stupid things like the aforementioned "oops, you get no save against instant cloudkill death when it just annoys the rest of the party").

It is a replacement for the LA system, it is not a written adaptation of every race and monster to that new system.

In the LA system, 'you have a set of abilities and traits that is paid for by a level loss compared to a normal character.' That is literally the entirety of the system. When you want to make a monster a PC, you need to take that monster and adapt it to that system (which, by your definition, means that it's not a system, which makes little to no sense).

In the Monster Class system, 'you have a set of abilities and traits that is gradually acquired through taking levels in a monstrous class, then you have to multiclass to your real class.' Again, that's pretty much the entirety of that system. Each monster has to be adapted to that in a quite complex way: You need to make an entirely new class for every race. Not to mention a ton of crazy little problems directly inherent in that system (such as that if you actually do have that class below max level, you don't really start out as your race). And again, it seems like by your definition, that's not a system.

In this system, you have a set of abilities and traits that is paid for or emulated by aspects of the game that are not levels (point buy, feats, spells, class features, etc). That is a very fundamental and significant paradigm shift, and a wholly different system.

Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not really a system.

By your definition, LA is not a system. Your definition seems a little misplaced, particularly given the context ^_^;

Having said that: thank you for reminding us this is OUR game, and we should treat it that way.

Very much so

 

[Kerrick]

I read the entire post (rather long, I must say ). I'm still digesting it, but here are a few of my initial thoughts.

The stat thing feels a little too loose to me - it relies too much on the DM knowing what he's doing and the player being honest. And what about people/groups who don't use point buy?

Giving PCs just the abilities for a lower cost is a good idea... but I can't quite wrap my head around the missing racial HD. Where do they go? Are they absorbed into the class levels, so it's more of a hybridized Savage Species "monster class" thing?

You actually have tons of things to correlate all those abilities to, whereas LA tells you to break out of the level system and try to figure out how that correlates to anything else (which is a tricky equation, to say the least, because the entire rest of the system wants you to have full levels, and you run into stupid things like the aforementioned "oops, you get no save against instant cloudkill death when it just annoys the rest of the party").

That's why spells are based on HD, not levels. As it turns out, though, I'm doing a massive revision of the 3.5 system, and I would love to be able to include a workable LA/ECL system with it - I'm at the point where I should be doing monsters, but I'm putting it off so I can wrap up a few bits and pieces of other stuff first.

 

[Angrydad]

The way my group runs LA monster characters is pretty simple. I'll use a Stone Giant as my example since we currently have one in the party. Stone Giants are LA +4 and have another 14 HD, which makes them an 18th level character. The player of this stone giant wanted to be one at a lower level than 18, so what we did was let him forsake all the racial HD in favor of a few levels of barbarian/fighter. He started with the party when they were about 9th level as a 5th level Barbarian. While this does make him weaker in the sense that he doesn't have all the class abilities of a 9th level character, the fact that he got +16 to Strength more than makes up for his relatively low HP and lack of other powers. At this point he's a 24th level character, so he's got 20 levels of class and 4 levels of LA from his Stone Giant racial traits. I realize this isn't a perfect way to go, since it does make for a character that is substantially lower in HP early on, but that's part of the fun and challenge for the character who wants to play the monster.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

And what about people/groups who don't use point buy?

What about them? They're free to use whatever rules they want. If you have a more specific question (like, "how would you adapt this system to a randomized stat generation system?") that'd a bit more answerable.

Giving PCs just the abilities for a lower cost is a good idea... but I can't quite wrap my head around the missing racial HD. Where do they go? Are they absorbed into the class levels

Yes. You get HD from class levels like everyone else. So instead of being a 10 HD critter with 1 class level, you're an 11 HD character with 11 class levels.

That's why spells are based on HD, not levels.

...

...You *do* realize that LA does not provide you with HD, and that you count the HD in addition to LA, right?

Check your rulebook. If you have a 10HD character with +5 LA, you in fact have a 15th level character who counts as a level 10 character and probably was actually of a CR of 8 or so. Actually, such characters would be better off if the spells *did* act off ECL rather than HD, because a creature with LA will have less HD than everyone else in the party and thus get hit harder by all spell effects (and occasionally get wiped out by a "mookclearing" spell because it turned out they were a CR 8 monster being played at level 18).

Stone Giants are LA +4 and have another 14 HD, which makes them an 18th level character.

Which is absolutely crazy, because they're a suitable challenge for a level 8 character. According to the CR system, you are supposed to be able to take on two of yourself for every two levels you gain. A level 10 character takes on two level 8s. A level 12 character takes on 2 level 4s. And a level 18 character treats a level 8 character as negligible and gets no XP whatsoever for bothering you. It's a perfect example of how the LA system is hopelessly broken.

so what we did was let him forsake all the racial HD in favor of a few levels of barbarian/fighter.

That is in fact part of how my system does it. It just goes a step further than you and gets rid of the LA for that +16 strength as well.

 

[Kerrick]

What about them? They're free to use whatever rules they want. If you have a more specific question (like, "how would you adapt this system to a randomized stat generation system?") that'd a bit more answerable.

Okay, fine. How would people who use random ability generation use this system?

Yes. You get HD from class levels like everyone else. So instead of being a 10 HD critter with 1 class level, you're an 11 HD character with 11 class levels.

So... in effect, you've got 10 levels of monster? Or 10 levels of a character class? Neverwinter Nights does it the first way - for LA races, it gives you x levels of humanoid, magical beast, etc.

You *do* realize that LA does not provide you with HD, and that you count the HD in addition to LA, right?

You *do* realize that I'm not trying to be snarky here? Sorry if I came across that way, but I'm honestly interested and trying to learn more about this. And yes, I do know that.

If you have a 10HD character with +5 LA, you in fact have a 15th level character who counts as a level 10 character and probably was actually of a CR of 8 or so. Actually, such characters would be better off if the spells *did* act off ECL rather than HD, because a creature with LA will have less HD than everyone else in the party and thus get hit harder by all spell effects (and occasionally get wiped out by a "mookclearing" spell because it turned out they were a CR 8 monster being played at level 18).

I'd forgotten about the ECL part. And you're right - basing spells of CR/ECL instead of HD is much more balanced. I redid polymorph ages ago that way - you can change into a creature whose CR (not HD) is equal to/less than your level. Same thing with turning. Having everything based off HD is the main reason the LA/ECL system is so screwed.

Stone Giants are LA +4 and have another 14 HD, which makes them an 18th level character.

Technically, that's wrong - ECL is CR + LA, so the stone giant with 12 class levels is ECL 16, not 18. I'm not sure I'd want to mess with a stone giant with 12 levels in anything at equal level.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally, I use a Monster Class system fusing what you'd find in Savage Species and in the PC race section of AU/AE- PCs taking levels in monster classes get HD, BAB & Save adjustments, etc.- but I don't have an "essentialist" philosophy.

The way I see it is this: human beings are born with many potential gifts, but only fully realize a few. I have a gift for stringed instruments, was a beast in certain sports, and I'm flat out stunning in a classroom...and I have other gifts besides. I only have a few hours in a given day to work on improving my gifts. I do work out, and I do practice my various instruments. But I'll never live up to my athletic or musical potential- I'm using my MBA and Law degrees instead.

Higher-fame examples- consider Tom Glavine, drafted as a hockey and baseball player...he chose baseball. John Elway could have been a baseball player as well, but chose football. Brian May, guitarist for Queen, has a doctorate in astrophysics. The bass player for the Doobie Brothers is currently a defense contractor...

Similarly, each species has potential to be essentially identical to their MM entries, but only if that is what they concentrate on. The MM entry is the stereotype, but not the only type.

So I take a creature's LA, and use that to construct a monster class (as mentioned before, with full class level benefits). LA+2 means a 2 level monster class. LA+6 = 6 level monster class.

A certain base level of racial attributes gets constructed, with all other abilities getting broken up across levels. (Yes, its a bit more of an art than a science, but so it goes.) If the monster PC doesn't take the top 2 levels of his monster class, he doesn't get those abilities. If he doesn't take any, he doesn't get any.

The Minotaur who eschews his race's natural gifts and spends his life as an Artificer might be large in stature, but wouldn't be physically imposing. He wouldn't have any more facility in a maze than a human. But he would have all those wonderful toys...

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

((Whoops, double post))

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

Okay, fine. How would people who use random ability generation use this system?

Well, there's a few ways that can happen. Assuming you're using the standard 4d6 generation, frankly it just hinders you from achieving exacting customization, but you are still getting higher-than-average skills which you can distribute through assignation and serve the same purpose as the point buy solution. If you roll a 14, that can either be a "I got +4 over normal because I'm an orc" or "I'm a super-awesome version of a human with incredible strength." It's really the same thing. It doesn't matter how you got the 14, just that you have it. It's essentially the same thing, except that your character creation resources are random, rather than constant.

If you're open to other methods of randomization... well, there's a lot out there besides the 4d6.

So... in effect, you've got 10 levels of monster? Or 10 levels of a character class? Neverwinter Nights does it the first way - for LA races, it gives you x levels of humanoid, magical beast, etc.

No, that's the monster level system (which would actually be much more viable if the multiclassing system were more viable, and if people didn't actually get the idea in their head that they should be playing these things at a level below "all of the monster levels are already there" in most campaign setups).

In this solution: you have X levels of whatever class you want, and meld the monstrous traits into that class or other elements of character building (feats, point buy, class features, etc). Once you realize that there are feats out there that grant you spells and racial features and such like "I can fly" or "I can grab a power from Class X without being part of that class," then you suddenly realize that you can model most races without paying any heed to the race system at all.

One perfectly good example for melding stuff into class is the Dragonmarked Sorcerer setup from Dragon Magazine (where all of the dragonmarked SLAs are rolled cleanly into your sorcerer progression as extra spells known rather than using the old clunky system to get a bunch of stuff that's superceded by your class abilities and made useless in comparison to them.)

This actually all falls back into the fact that classes and other character building elements are all metagame features, and what matters is whether or not the person functions like what they're supposed to be in game (which is why, for example, the entire cast of Naruto, including the occasional special race in there, is statted up using psionic classes and normal races, no one had to make a new "shinobi" class to make that accurate representation possible). The linking of certain character resources to different flavor elements is nothing but metagame thinking that hinders some people from realizing the creative potential to make the character they want within the system. Often, I find that it is people's perceptions (or rather, illusions. I've seriously spoken to people who were utterly convinced that you had to describe a disintegrate ray as being green because the flavor text said it shot a green ray) that stop them from building the character they want, rather than it actually having anything to do with the limitations of the game system itself. Such illusions shouldn't limit your houseruling either.

Having everything based off HD is the main reason the LA/ECL system is so screwed.

Right. You had it backwards before.

Technically, that's wrong - ECL is CR + LA, so the stone giant with 12 class levels is ECL 16, not 18. I'm not sure I'd want to mess with a stone giant with 12 levels in anything at equal level.

Nope, it's actually HD + LA, not CR + LA. Biiig difference. You're the one that's wrong, I'm afraid.

So I take a creature's LA, and use that to construct a monster class (as mentioned before, with full class level benefits). LA+2 means a 2 level monster class. LA+6 = 6 level monster class.

A certain base level of racial attributes gets constructed, with all other abilities getting broken up across levels. (Yes, its a bit more of an art than a science, but so it goes.) If the monster PC doesn't take the top 2 levels of his monster class, he doesn't get those abilities. If he doesn't take any, he doesn't get any.

Think about it, though. Except in the case of some of the most powerful and versatile monsters, those racial abilities and base traits are really only worth a few feats or so. "I can fly" isn't worth taking 4 class levels, I can just use the feat to get wings. Or I can buy an item that lets me fly all the time. Why not just expend a few of those resources (feats, wealth, spells known, whatever) in order to represent this scant handfull of extra capabilities rather than creating a whole new class? It's far easier, and has the same outcome.

The Minotaur who eschews his race's natural gifts and spends his life as an Artificer might be large in stature, but wouldn't be physically imposing. He wouldn't have any more facility in a maze than a human. But he would have all those wonderful toys...

So what's a minotaur then? The only trait you're giving them is "Large." I don't need to spend a few levels in order to make someone Large. Heck, the resident Psychic Warrior seems to hang out in that size category or greater pretty much 100% of the time... I can take a few feats with a level prerequisite, or I can buy an item with a permanent enlarge effect, or etc etc. If you wanted to include it: Being able to find your way in a maze is worth less than 1 feat and could just be your basic racial ability without you spending anything. Being strong is just represented by buying higher strength.

So... why make the Minotaur Artificer lose a few precious caster levels to make him forever suck compared to his "normal" compatriots? Your system doesn't avoid that problem. I'd rather just have a "Minotaur Artificer 4" rather than "Minotaur 2, Artificer 2." Didn't we want to be rid of races as classes ever since 1e's elf?