Essentialism and a solution to replacing the LA system

[Kerrick]

Anyways, more accurately, it means "class-level-independent requirements" (which is what I already said). Or, in other words, prerequisites that are not directly linked to a single class, such as BAB or Universal Caster Level, which multiple, if not all, classes have access to. A class-level-dependent requirement would be the feat that says "Prerequisite: Paladin 6." As is, all the spells work this way, and that's kinda stupid.

I just wasn't sure what you meant by "class-level-independent requirements", and that was the closest analogue I could come up with. Universal Caster Level is a concept brought up in UA with the magic rating (I assume you're including noncaster classes here), so it wouldn't really apply unless you use that system or one of the multiclassing variants on the forums here.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But you still have racial levels, right? Isn't that what we're trying to get rid of, because they make PCs with them lag behind others without them?

Yes, it does keep them- like I said, I don't have a problem with that and don't feel the need to remove them.

The lag of which you speak really only exists with the WotC style monster levels. The AU/AE racial class levels function exactly like class levels.

If its a question of the effect on spellcasting in particular, you simply add in that venerable "+1 spellcasting level" mechanic you see in PrCls to certain monster levels.

True, but the monsters in D&D are only loosely based on legend - there was not, obviously, an entire race of minotaurs in Greek mythology. That being said, it is kind of strange that they would get that ability, now that I think about it...

Agreed that the basis is only partial, but it still raises the question of what, exactly, is essential, at least in the case of critters based on lore and legend.

 

[Kerrick]

The lag of which you speak really only exists with the WotC style monster levels. The AU/AE racial class levels function exactly like class levels.

How does that work, exactly? You say they work exactly like class levels, but that makes me think of Savage Species, which most assuredly did not work.

 

[Kerrick]

I think I figured out how to do it. The Humanoid Type entry says:

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

So what if we simply exchange racial HD for class levels on a 1:1 basis? A stone giant with 12 levels of fighter will still have 14 HD, but it's 2d8+12d10 instead of 14d8. Once the number of levels exceeds the base HD, he starts gaining extra HD (from his class levels). Since he's not losing any HD, he can keep all his racial abilities, and there won't be any need for an LA (though possibly a CR adjustment).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How does that work, exactly? You say they work exactly like class levels, but that makes me think of Savage Species, which most assuredly did not work.

1) SS monster levels didn't neccessarily have all of the attributes of a standard class level- BAB, skill points, etc., might be left off if the level included a particularly powerful ability or suite of abilities.

AU/AE abilities have ALL of the standard class benefits.

2) All of a critter's SS monster levels had to be taken before the PC could take a single level of a standard base class. Thus, a PC with a race with 8 monster levels had to take all 8 of those levels before taking a single level of Fighter or Wizard or whatever. IOW, a Minotaur always starts as a Minotaur, and is only a Minotaur until all of those levels are taken.

In contrast, AU/AE dispensed with that requirement. In that game, a monster PC could take all, some, or none of those monster levels as he saw fit, in any order, just like another base class. You could play a monster race and take Mage Blade (an AU/AE base class) at level 1, or start off taking a racial class level, then take Mage Blade levels from then on...and so forth.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

Again, if you really wanted to take advantage of an actual monster class level system in 3.5e, you need to go fix multiclassing first. I suggest following Tome of Battle's example for starters.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Its a matter of taste, I suppose- I hate ToB and see nothing wrong with multiclassing as is.

The perceived problem is probably more related to the structure of spells and the classes that use them- their autoscaling effectiveness and linking power accumulation exclusively to level.

For instance, a system in which you could use whatever spell/power you had the power to use (e.g. spell points or the like) coupled with chaining spells the way Feats are done (IOW, you can't learn Deep Slumber unless you know Sleep) and having a "purchase" system for spell acquisition would have fewer problems in the current multiclassing system.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

Its a matter of taste, I suppose- I hate ToB and see nothing wrong with multiclassing as is.

If you see nothing wrong with having your ability for your 14th level be "I get a CL2 Magic Missile!" then you've got more wrong with your perspective of mechanics than taste. It quite simply does not compete with alternative choices. Thus, it is significantly unbalanced. Thus, something is wrong. Simple.

The perceived problem is probably more related to the structure of spells and the classes that use them- their autoscaling effectiveness and linking power accumulation exclusively to level.

Uhm, that's what I said! That's why I said you needed to make it so that qualification for abilities was not based directly on class level, a la ToB. Then you said you hated that. WTF, man? You're being contradictory now.

For instance, a system in which you could use whatever spell/power you had the power to use (e.g. spell points or the like) coupled with chaining spells the way Feats are done (IOW, you can't learn Deep Slumber unless you know Sleep) and having a "purchase" system for spell acquisition would have fewer problems in the current multiclassing system.

You mean class-level-independent qualification for powers a la ToB? WOW, I would have never thought of that! /sarcasm

Seriously, you just suggested exactly what I said, as well as a ToB-like system... right after saying you hated ToB-like systems. (ToB: Your caster level is based partly on your character level, you can get and scale abilities from other classes, and you have feat-like qualification for "spells." You suggested all of these things, right after saying you hated them)

For example:

(IOW, you can't learn Deep Slumber unless you know Sleep)

Kinda like I can't get, say, White Raven Strike if I don't already know at least one White Raven Maneuver? Seriously, what you just said is exactly how ToB "spell" qualification works. Oh wait, no, you said you HATED that way of doing things.

Seriously, try to at least remotely make sense, Dannyalcatraz. Outright contradicting yourself = bad.

Or: Let me guess, you're one of those people who hates ToB but never bothered to read it?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you see nothing wrong with having your ability for your 14th level be "I get a CL2 Magic Missile!" then you've got more wrong with your perspective of mechanics than taste. It quite simply does not compete with alternative choices. Thus, it is significantly unbalanced. Thus, something is wrong. Simple.

IMHO, you don't multiclass for efficiency or to powergame, you multiclass to capture the essence of the PC. That a multiclassing choice doesn't equate to the power gained by continuing to level within a class is totally and utterly irrelevant.

If your PC wants to take his first or second level of Wizard at 14th level and gain MM (no other levels of Wizard gains only a single 1st level spell), there's nothing wrong with that.

Its not unbalanced- its a natural and realistic consequence of being a magical dilettante.

For me, it strains credulity that 14th level PC to gain a low level of wizardry and gain an ability commensurate with the power of an ability gained at 14th level by a mono-classed PC.

Consider, Michael Jordan, despite being one of the greatest professional basketball players of all time, couldn't hit a baseball well enough to play competitively as a pro. He wasn't even a good minor leaguer, much less a major leaguer.

(And I'd advise you to tone down things like "then you've got more wrong with your perspective of mechanics than taste.")

ToB: Your caster level is based partly on your character level, you can get and scale abilities from other classes, and you have feat-like qualification for "spells." You suggested all of these things, right after saying you hated them)

Not quite. (And to clarify- I own ToB, read it, and hate ToB's take on martial combat.)

1) Caster level should be entirely based on caster class levels- different from ToB. I never suggested otherwise. I'll go further in suggesting that arcane caster class levels shouldn't stack with divine (or psionic) ones.

2) I never said anything about getting or scaling abilities for other classes.

3) I didn't say anything about "feat-like qualification for "spells."" I said that spells could have prerequisite spells, like feats have prerequisite feats. Conceivably, some might even require skills.

Kinda like I can't get, say, White Raven Strike if I don't already know at least one White Raven Maneuver?

No, more like you couldn't get White Raven Strike unless you knew a specific prerequisite maneuver.

For spells, you couldn't learn Deep Slumber without learning Sleep. No other spell would do. Color Spray would be the prereq for some other spell like Rainbow Pattern. And that same structure and stricture would be for each spell.

To further clarify, what I'm suggesting is that spell acquisition would be more like a tree than ToB's take. Several of the lower levels would be entirely linear- you couldn't take the second level Polymorph spell without the 1st level one, and the 3rd without the 2nd. At higher levels, as the school branches out, you'd still have to have the specific prerequisite spells. Its even possible that certain subschools of a family of spells would be mutually exclusive.

 

[Kerrick]

In contrast, AU/AE dispensed with that requirement. In that game, a monster PC could take all, some, or none of those monster levels as he saw fit, in any order, just like another base class. You could play a monster race and take Mage Blade (an AU/AE base class) at level 1, or start off taking a racial class level, then take Mage Blade levels from then on...and so forth.

So a better version of SS. How does it work for stat bonuses and natural armor? Do you get those right off the bat, or do they accrue with racial levels?

If you see nothing wrong with having your ability for your 14th level be "I get a CL2 Magic Missile!" then you've got more wrong with your perspective of mechanics than taste. It quite simply does not compete with alternative choices. Thus, it is significantly unbalanced.

There's nothing wrong with multiclassing in general, but with multiclassing spellcasters. It doesn't require a rewrite of the entire multiclassing rule, just how spellcasters are handled. Several people have already posited solutions to that very problem in the General RPG forum.