Essentialism and a solution to replacing the LA system

[OneWinged4ngel]

IMHO, you don't multiclass for efficiency or to powergame, you multiclass to capture the essence of the PC.

So your game design philosophy is "players should be massively unbalanced, people should be heavily penalized for trying to capture the essence of a concept that is outside of the game-defined "norms."

If your PC wants to take his first or second level of Wizard at 14th level and gain MM (no other levels of Wizard gains only a single 1st level spell), there's nothing wrong with that.

Except that you gained a single 1d4+1 damage attack. As your level *fourteen* ability. And are thus being massively penalized compared to everyone else in the party who got a real ability, just because the essence of their concept doesn't match up with what you, the game designer decided should be halfway level-appropriate or not.

Calling a CL1 magic missile balanced with CL15 disintegrate doesn't make it true. It doesn't even make it halfway sane.

Its not unbalanced

Gee, 1d4+1 on one target at caster level 1, totally not underpowered for a 14th level ability. Not unbalanced at all!

This perspective can only be described as delusional. Look at any ability normally gained at that level, even by the classes described as most underpowered. Nothing sucks that much. Nothing. At all.

1) Caster level should be entirely based on caster class levels- different from ToB. I never suggested otherwise. I'll go further in suggesting that arcane caster class levels shouldn't stack with divine (or psionic) ones.

And next you'll say that BAB shouldn't scale with non-melee classes. Or maybe you just think they should suck. You already said you thought a 1d4+1 attack was a perfectly balance 14th level ability.

3) I didn't say anything about "feat-like qualification for "spells."" I said that spells could have prerequisite spells, like feats have prerequisite feats. Conceivably, some might even require skills.

That's what "feat-like qualification for spells" is.

No, more like you couldn't get White Raven Strike unless you knew a specific prerequisite maneuver.

So the next part of your game design philosophy is that you should heavily restrict character customization and restrict them to preset trees, their spell choice progressions determined by you.

For spells, you couldn't learn Deep Slumber without learning Sleep. No other spell would do.

Or you could just make it scale to Deep Slumber and actually let the player learn a new and different ability someday. Seriously, what you're really doing here is making the Sorcerer use all his spells known to scale up their spells known while Clerics, Druids, and Wizards get a far larger advantage than they already do, not to mention significantly restricting the game's versatility in build.

Several of the lower levels would be entirely linear

And if you deviate you would be terribly unbalanced, but not by your definition, because to you, by your words, Contingency and Antimagic Field aren't any better than a CL 1 Magic Missile.

Yeah, you have fun with your houserules, where "everything is balanced, no matter what the actual numbers are" and "people have to take everything in predefined trees." I wouldn't play in your game, just like I wouldn't play in one where the DM made people select from a handful of pregenerated characters and some were level 5 and some were level 15.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So a better version of SS. How does it work for stat bonuses and natural armor? Do you get those right off the bat, or do they accrue with racial levels?

You get a fraction of the total at creation while the rest accrue over levels. Something with a +4LA that would get, say, a +6Str adjustment might get a +2 Str bonus at creation, a +2Str at its second racial level and the last +2Str at the 4th racial level. Ditto NAC, or a creature's flight ability, or what have you.

There's nothing wrong with multiclassing in general, but with multiclassing spellcasters. It doesn't require a rewrite of the entire multiclassing rule, just how spellcasters are handled. Several people have already posited solutions to that very problem in the General RPG forum.

Again, I don't have a problem with multiclassing as is.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So your game design philosophy is "players should be massively unbalanced, people should be heavily penalized for trying to capture the essence of a concept that is outside of the game-defined "norms."

No. My game design philosophy is that learning curves exist for a reason. Knowledge is cumulative.

Just because a PC is 14th level doesn't mean he gets to step into a high-level benefit when he multiclasses.

Except that you gained a single 1d4+1 damage attack. As your level *fourteen* ability. And are thus being massively penalized compared to everyone else in the party who got a real ability, just because the essence of their concept doesn't match up with what you, the game designer decided should be halfway level-appropriate or not.

Again, I don't care that the 1d4+1 attack doesn't stack up to the abilities of his non-multiclassing cronies. If the player's concept is that his 13th level fighter went to Wiz school for a level, he gets the benefits a 1st level Wizard gains.

I have a couple of graduate level degrees. I can't get into another program and get another diploma unless I go through all the grunt work that builds up to that point.

I can't walk into a dojo and ask for a black belt just because I was a brown belt in a different combat form. I have to earn that belt.

I can't just go and play a Schubert concerto on piano at Carnagie Hall just because I'm pretty good at guitar. I have to put in the hard work and practice to gain that skill.

Calling a CL1 magic missile balanced with CL15 disintegrate doesn't make it true. It doesn't even make it halfway sane.

The spells are not balanced, but the opportunities are. The PC who chooses that road is picking a difficult one, but hardly unfair. He's not looking at the now, he's looking at the future.

This perspective can only be described as delusional.

Another descriptor would be "realistic."

You already said you thought a 1d4+1 attack was a perfectly balance 14th level ability.

No, I said that a 13th level PC gaining his 14th PC level as his first in a different class isn't entitled to anything beyond the benefits of any other 1st level practitioner in that class. He hasn't learned anything beyond that point.

So the next part of your game design philosophy is that you should heavily restrict character customization and restrict them to preset trees, their spell choice progressions determined by you.

No, I was describing one possible set of design options.

Personally, I hailed the freedom granted by 3Ed multiclassing as compared to previous editions. 3.5Ed is, in fact, my 3rd favorite game system of all time.

Given a choice, however, I gravitate more towards point-based RPGs. They generally grant nearly infinite flexibility.

Yeah, you have fun with your houserules, where "everything is balanced, no matter what the actual numbers are" and "people have to take everything in predefined trees." I wouldn't play in your game, just like I wouldn't play in one where the DM made people select from a handful of pregenerated characters and some were level 5 and some were level 15.

Actually, other than my adoption of the AU/AE racial levels, none of what I've discussed are my HRs. Some were other players' HRs, others were actually lifted from other RPGs.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

Just because a PC is 14th level doesn't mean he gets to step into a high-level benefit when he multiclasses.

And high level benefits are not balanced against low level benefits, let alone level 1 benefits. Therefore, multiclassing under your system is severely unbalanced. QED.

Again, I don't care that the 1d4+1 attack doesn't stack up to the abilities of his non-multiclassing cronies. If the player's concept is that his 13th level fighter went to Wiz school for a level, he gets the benefits a 1st level Wizard gains.

That's fine, but pretending that's balanced is absurd.

I have a couple of graduate level degrees. I can't get into another program and get another diploma unless I go through all the grunt work that builds up to that point.

I can't walk into a dojo and ask for a black belt just because I was a brown belt in a different combat form. I have to earn that belt.

I can't just go and play a Schubert concerto on piano at Carnagie Hall just because I'm pretty good at guitar. I have to put in the hard work and practice to gain that skill.

And these points relate to balance how? Incidentally, it's not too uncommon for heroic fantasy characters to do these things regularly, not to mention that the single-class ramp is unrealistically fast on its own.

The spells are not balanced, but the opportunities are. The PC who chooses that road is picking a difficult one, but hardly unfair. He's not looking at the now, he's looking at the future.

The future where he gets a caster level of six? At level 20?

Another descriptor would be "realistic."

Again, how in the *heck* does you thinking something is realistic (an absurd statement in itself, considering that magic itself is unrealistic, but nevermind) make it balanced? The issues do not overlap. Whether something is realistic or not is irrelevant to whether it is balanced or not.

Realism has nothing to do with the subject of balance. At all.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Again, how in the *heck* does you thinking something is realistic (an absurd statement in itself, considering that magic itself is unrealistic, but nevermind) make it balanced? The issues do not overlap. Whether something is realistic or not is irrelevant to whether it is balanced or not.

Realism has nothing to do with the subject of balance. At all.

Dude, take a breath. You seem to be getting all worked up over the fact that you've got different priorities in your game than he does.

Not everyone worships at the alter of "balance", and people have a different standard for what's balanced and what isn't. This has been an interesting topic so far, but I've really got no interest in watching this argument. If you think your system is superior, fine.

I like seeing how you're approaching things, and I like having the contrast of how Dannyalcatraz is handling the same thing. It'd be awfully nice if a civil and useful discussion of the approaches could continue.

 

[Kerrick]

You get a fraction of the total at creation while the rest accrue over levels. Something with a +4LA that would get, say, a +6Str adjustment might get a +2 Str bonus at creation, a +2Str at its second racial level and the last +2Str at the 4th racial level. Ditto NAC, or a creature's flight ability, or what have you.

So it's like the system I proposed before. Interesting. The only downside I can see (from a design viewpoint) is that you'd have to effectively create racial classes for all those monsters. How do templates work? Do they have racial levels too?

 

[Angrydad]

So it's like the system I proposed before. Interesting. The only downside I can see (from a design viewpoint) is that you'd have to effectively create racial classes for all those monsters. How do templates work? Do they have racial levels too?

I'm still confused as to how spreading out the racial abilities over several levels is any different than a LA. Does the monster PC take levels in a racial class to gain these improvements, or do they just accrue as s/he gains levels in a heroic class? Either way the character ends up with the same LA, just later. Also, if the ability bumps are just being gained as levels in a heroic class are also being attained then the character quickly becomes more powerful than other PCs who are more standard races in similar classes. LA is there to prevent this.

Kerrick, templates like Celestial or Fiendish might seem like they scale up nicely, but be aware that these templates eventually just add a LA once the creature you're templating gains more HD. Some templates, such as half-dragon or half-celestial are just flat out +4 LA regardless of the HD of the base creature. I had a character in my current campaign who was a Half-celestial fighter/dervish, but the rest of the party was about mid level, 9th or so, when he joined so his lower HP total wasn't too much of a problem. Templates and LA are only a big hassle with low level characters.

 

[Herzog]

Advantages of Monster Class vs LA:

1. you get actual HD.
2. you get skillpoints etc.
3. if you use the version where you are NOT required to take all monster class levels before switching to a 'regular' class, you can opt to ignore more powerfull abilities and modifiers until after you have taken some 'normal' class levels.

Both systems you describe (taking monster class levels OR gaining abilities while taking heroic class levels) have been proposed in this thread, if I'm not mistaken. The former (monster class levels) has been introduced for some specific races in, for instance, Races of the Dragon, so could be considered 'closer to RAW', for those who find that important.

Templates and LA are only a big hassle with low level characters.

No, they're just a different hassle.
At low levels, you feel the lack of hitpoints, skillpoints, and feats.
At high levels, you feel the lack of HD, BaB and CL.
(of course, with a high-LA creature or template, you will feel both as long as your class levels are (far) below your LA....)

 

[Angrydad]

This whole debate reminds me a bit of the arguments related to multiclassing and spellcasters (for a specific example). People are complaining that a monster character with LA +X is weaker than characters who are of the same ECL. While that is technically true from a BAB, HD, and a few other areas perspective, the LA is there because that monster also gets some sweet powers or abilities to compensate for the lower HD or BAB. The stone giant in my party is technically 4 levels behind a fighter/warrior type in BAB but it's made up for by his +16 to Str. If you don't want a character who is handicapped in CL, BAB, or HD then take a more standard character race and quit whining.

Similarly, if you multiclass and start to whine about not being as powerful a wizard/fighter/whatever I have no sympathy for you. Part of multiclassing is versatility. If you want power you need to stick more with one class and then find a good PrC.

 

[Herzog]

I agree with you on the multiclassing.

The problem most people have with LA is that it represents the power of the abilities of the race (NB: extra stat bonusses, special abilities like flight, size, etc.), but that most of these abilities are only powerfull at low levels.

Where a certain race's LA might be considered +4 at a lvl 5 party (thus allowing only 1 class lvl) the same race's abilities when viewed at lvl 20 might only be +1 or +2.

Of course, there's also the possibility to use a LA buy-off method (don't know where it is from, but saw it mentioned several times on this board ).

And then there's the people who want to play a certain race for the 'fluff'. Since the game is supposed to be fun, why nog give a player what he or she wants? If someone wants to play a hill giant at lvl 1, you have to come up with some kind of radical Monster Class, probably to the point the character is an infant hill giant at best, but if that is what he wants to play, that's fine with me.

Herzog

PS: Arrr